winter camping

Heading out into the mountains next month for some winter camping.  Looking for any and all advice.  I'm starting to pack now so am up for trying new gear or combinations of gear (money provided).
     Basically I'll take any and all advice.  The trip will consist of snow shoeing in an unknown distance.  A long weekend of camping then snow shoeing out.  I'm looking for a good discussion about different skills.

Are you going alone Fox?

take an eskimo with you.

on a more serious note i havnt got any experience with this so other then common sense stuff like make sure you get a 4 seasons sleeping bag, thermal socks and underwear under lots of layers of clothing, extra extra fire lighting backups, maybe some solid fuel, heat packs just incase. probably all the stuff you already thought of.

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle won."  Sir Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington.

"The problem with arguing with a Donkey is, it gets you nowhere and irritates the Donkey" Brother Grimm

In my youth before I got tired of being cold and wet, I did some snow camping, but I was never brave enough to do it on foot. Best advise I can give you is to stay dry, and that means lots of extra clothing expecially boots and socks. If this is a first time adventure be sure to be in a location where you can get help make sure people know exactly where you are going. It sounds silly but one of those Spot GPS locators might not be a bad idea to have along. Keep in mind that the weather can chage in an instant in the high country, pepare for the worst and you will be ready for anything minor that comes up.

Do not fear the night.    Fear what hunts by night.

Things to consider:
Are you doing open camp fire or some type of stove?
For stoves you may need some kind of board o rplank to set them on so they do not melt into the snow.

Keep an extra set of clothing in some kind of waterproof bag like a ziplock or food saver type thing. Reason is if you get completly soaked you now have dry clothing.

all knives need some kind of teather (dummy cord) or paracord streamer for finding them if dropped in the snow. Bright colors work best, but in snow black stands out fairly well.

melt snow a little at a time and add more after it melts. This goes to fuel conservation more than any thing else.

Fox, could you be so kind as to let us know what the terain will be like. pine forest, plains, rocky terrain etc.
If I think of anything else I will add more.
-Joe

To many hobbies, not enough time.

I've done a fair amount of cold weather camping here in Michigan.

(1) No Cotton
(2) dress in layers, use fast drying performance fabrics and fleeces if available
(3) Use a sleeping bag rated for worse than the expected lows, or some of our scouts put their 3 season bag into a light summer  bag.
(4) Propane cook stoves don't work so well in the cold. White gas is your friend.
(5) Use fire ribbon to warm the regulator on a white gas stove.
(6) Did I mention no cotton?
(7) multiple ways to start a fire
(8) use those little heat packs for hands and feet.
(9) Aluminum instead fiberglass for the tent poles.
(10) Pack an extra hat, gloves and socks
(11) Don't eat snow to quench thirst, it makes your body colder.
(12) And no cotton

Let me see if I can answer all your questions first.  
1 not alone.  Father and son bonding time.  It's great that my pop is still doing all this in his 60's.  Man is determined to live to be 100 and will!
2. known location and terrain with people knowing our location
3. No GPS locator, no cell phone service.  I know not smart...
4. Terrain, pine / birch forest.  Mountains.

Thanks for the advice folks, most is what I've done before.  The problem is most of my cold weather experience comes from living in Alaska.  The problem is I don't have muckluks, a Upic parka and an eskimo with me.  You might have been joking LittleNick but it's something I've done before.  No Cotton is a big one for me.  The propane I didn't know as I usually do all my cooking over open fire.  My bag is rated well below the temps I'll see.  My biggest problem is that I have a great warm coat but it's too tight for layering under it.  I have to choose between layer insufficient layers or one sufficient layer.  Obviously if I think I can manage the weight I'll bring both.

Keep the advice coming folks.

One great coat, that doesn't allow layers can be a problem, plus if it's tight, your mobility for snowshoeing may be compromised.

I have an eVent hard shell for a wind/water proof outer layer. I use merino wool or fleece layers under (or combinations in the very cold) I also have a down vest I use sometimes, it makes a good pillow at night, and one slip into it when you stop moving.

depending on the cut/make/weight/insulation of the tight but warm outer coat, I might be inclined to leave it behind.

Just to add to what Joe was saying about melting ice a little at a time, if you try and put a big load of snow in at once it will self insulate and the fire will work against the pot, ruining it.
Another way to melt snow is to stick a large lump of it on a stick near a fire (this is called a 'Finnish marshmallow') and let it slowly melt into a container below. If the snow is too cold and powdery for this you can suspend it above a fire in a mosquito net or an item of clothing and again let it melt into a pot below.

As well as having spare clothing in a drybag, have extra socks and gloves in a smaller more accesible drybag and even a pair of very lightweight sneakers or plimsoles if possible. If your feet get wet you have something to put on your feet while you dry everything out.

Another handy and lightweight thing to take along are garbage sacks (shelter, groundsheet, container, drybag, sieve etc. etc.)

I always have garbage bags with me, usually 2 or 3.  Thanks for the ideas about layering clothing.  I have good long underwear, and good fleece but sadly little to no wool which is my preference.  My smart wool socks, thermal booties, heavy fleece socks should make for good foot care.  I usually take my moccasins for light weight footwear around camp.

My problem with the heavy coat is that it's really my only good wind layer.  Everything else I have doesn't breath.  I'm hoping not to have to spend much money for this trip but...

You can also use some existing water when melting snow, just heat some water you carry, make a hot chocolate, leaving some hot water in the pot.  Add snow to the pot and melt it as you drink your hot cocoa.

fox

My problem with the heavy coat is that it's really my only good wind layer.  Everything else I have doesn't breath.  I'm hoping not to have to spend much money for this trip but...

If you are handy with a needle and thread you could make a Capote, or a kind of hooded cape with sleves typically made by the Plains Indians from trade blakets. One large wool blaket from an army/navy surplus would probably do.
 
...Just a thought.
-Joe

To many hobbies, not enough time.

Good Water Proof heavy insulated boots are a must. What I mean about water proof is that you can stand in water and they don't leak at all.

Get a heavy wool coat if you can.

Natchez Bowie, San Mai III Trailmaster, SK-5 Trail Master (MARTEMP), Laredo Bowie (Carbon V Made in USA), Original 5 3/4" Tanto (1986), Mini Bushman, 2 Spikes, Recon 1 (Old), Recon 1 (New), Hatamoto, Black Talon, 4" Voyager, Gunsite II, Gunsite, Recon Tanto Carbon V, Black Rhino, Rajah 1, American Lawman G10 Vers, 2010 Recon 1.

jsquared

(11) Don't eat snow to quench thirst, it makes your body colder.

This one is actually an urban myth.
recent research has shown that eating snow has no significant effect on core temp.


What I will say is, stay Hydrated, you need to take in plenty of fluids in the cold.


I melt snow in a bug head net over the fire sometimes.


For base layers, I favour merino wool. since I started using it, I've not touched synthetics.
It's far superior.

If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more than 20 seconds, I should assume I'm not allowed to do it.
Skippy's List, Item 87

BigJoe,
     Do you have any instructions on how to make one?  I was thinking of making a heavy wool coat in such a manner but what you describe sounds interesting.  Or even where to find instructions would be good.


Grahm,
     I'll look for some merino wool.  I usually use a synthetic layer or a silk layer I have.  the silk is incredibly warm.


Everyone,
     Keep the advice coming I'm enjoying the ideas.

I'm sure you know most of this Fox, but while we're brainstorming -

Sunglasses or ski goggles? Snow glare can be debilitating and dangerous in the long term.
Also lightweight walking sticks or hiking poles if they weren't on the list already.

In the words of one bushcraft instructor - "Better red than dead".
While it may seem cool to be some kind of snow ninja, or to blend into the forest with your realtree jacket and scare the bunnies, it's one more thing that will make it very difficult for someone to find you if you get lost or hurt - go high vis on your outer layers of clothing and backpack.

It's pretty much axiomatic the the colder the enviroment, the heavier your pack has to be, so I'd go through some of the stuff you are already taking and see if you can upgrade (or downgrade) them to lighter versions. Avoid metal if the same job can be done by a plastic item - both for weight and for heat conducting properties. Ditch unnecessary items and pack lots of multi-use items. Although you will want to have a little redundancy for safeties sake.

Fox,
 
The book I found this information in is, "How to Survive Anywhear, A Guide for Urban, Suburban,
Rural and Wilderness Environments" by Christopher Nyerges. ISBN# 978-0-811-3304-5
 
I will try to PM some pictures of the pages covering construction, the base pattern in the book is for a size 38 mens coat.
-Joe

To many hobbies, not enough time.

Another idea:
Use a sled to tow your gear. something light like a sleeping pad if the snow is not splotchy and which can damage the pad, or a small wood frame with packs laid across it.

To many hobbies, not enough time.

If you're snow shoeing take along ski poles for balance and to help you get when you fall. Get the kind you can use for avalanche probes if you can Watch for avalanche dangers - get the reports ahead of time. Also have avalanche training beforehand.
Take a good lightweight snow shovel, with a good edge for ice layers. Carry a small tarp to lay things on or to stand  on to change clothing.
I have carried a large gortex thinsulate coat into the backcountry (10km, 6000ft) and I was glad I did. The temp dropped to -21C that night. I just strapped it to the top of my pack. I used it on my marginal sleeping bag that night and was warm as toast.
Take a light saw and small chopper for firewood. Headlamp with spare batteries
I did most of my backcountry guiding before gps, sattelite phones, etc were affordable or light enough. We just had good maps, left behind a clear route plan, and made sure everyone was familiar with quick routes.
Lots of hot chocolate and other hot drink mixes.
I have eaten snow and found it great for cooling down when exerting and sweating. Around camp I stick with hot drinks. The don't eat snow thing is more when you're in survival situations with minimal calorie intake or ways to warm yourself.
Jsquared said it best - no cotton Cotton kills

Only those are fit to live who do not fear to die. And none are fit to die who have shrunk from the joy and duty of life. Both life and death are parts of the same great adventure."-Theodore Roosevelt.

'the strong do as they wish, and the weak suffer as they must'' the maxim of Thucydides

graham_s

jsquared

(11) Don't eat snow to quench thirst, it makes your body colder.

This one is actually an urban myth.
recent research has shown that eating snow has no significant effect on core temp.

Interesting, new studies are always finding something new about conventional wisdom. However I'd have to see the research before I'd change what I've read and been taught from many, many sources. Do you have a link to the data?

When boiling water to sterilise it, you only have to bring it to the boil for a second and the work is done - no need to waste fuel boiling for several minutes or more.
The same applies even at high altitude, even though your water will boil at a lower temperature here - any nasties will have been killed off long before the water appears to boil.

jsquared

graham_s

jsquared

(11) Don't eat snow to quench thirst, it makes your body colder.

This one is actually an urban myth.
recent research has shown that eating snow has no significant effect on core temp.

Interesting, new studies are always finding something new about conventional wisdom. However I'd have to see the research before I'd change what I've read and been taught from many, many sources. Do you have a link to the data?

I don't have it handy.
I was told this (and shown the research) at a lecture on arctic survival I attended last year.
I was also told this By Mors Kochanski. If anyone knows about this sort of stuff, he does.

If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more than 20 seconds, I should assume I'm not allowed to do it.
Skippy's List, Item 87

Good comments everyone.
     I think I've decided to go with my long underwear layers, my long sleeve moisture wicking shirt, my fleece jacket (or two), my shell layer and my down jacket for around camp.  The layers should allow me enough options and so long as I keep the down dry it should see me through everything.  I also picked up a pair of "boot covers".  Basically very heavy boot shaped blankets meant to go over your shoes when hunting or sitting arround.   i'm going to modify them a little with an inner lining of rabbit fur to make an improvised pair of mucklucks.  Haven't used a pair since Alaska but nothing beat them for cold weather.  

     I'm packing everything up thursday so any last minute advice would still be great.  I'll let you all know how it goes.

Fox,
I know you will not read this untill your return but, hope it is a great time and all are well.

To many hobbies, not enough time.

Great trip.  I had a blast.  The first half of the hike in we made about 30 minutes per mile.  Not bad considering I have next to no experience on snow shoes and my father is 60.  The second half of the trip was straight up hill, we went down to over an hour per mile.  We used sleds to pull our gear behind us.  Attached them to our daypacks worked great.

temperatures ranged from about 10 degrees during the day to single digits at night with windchill below zero.  Couldn't have your gloves off for more then about one minute before it became hard to move your fingers.  As soon as you stopped moving it was cold.

Exhausted after the hike we collected just enough firewood for one night.  Cooked a hot dinner which helped.  Fell asleep in the tent by about 8pm.  I was actually hot in the bag even though my one water bottle froze solid inside the tent.  The other was in my bag with me.  The inside of the tent had a nice layer of ice when we woke.  It seemed cold out of the bags until we climbed out of the tent, that was frigid.

The entire day was spent collected firewood.  Our gas stove froze (not unexpected) so wood and fire became a very necessary item.  We took breaks for food but other then that we processed wood constantly.

Had a good fire and another hot dinner.  Again fell asleep early.  The level of work was about what I expected but knowing it and experiencing it are different.  Fell asleep exhausted.  Managed to have some fun the next day since we had enough fire wood.  One more night of frigid temps and we took off not even bothering to eat a breakfast.

The trip down was much faster.  Strap gear to the sleds, sit on the gear and shoot down the mountain fast.  We averaged a mile in about 15 minutes on the way down.  Had to stop a few times to retie gear, etc.

We were the only two who had been on that mountain for some time.  The lean too we stayed in (put the tent up inside the lean too for more warmth) had a log.  The last people passed by for a day hike in the beginning of january.  We did see fresh bobcat tracks, actually followed them up the mountain.  It was clearly his area and there were fresh tracks right outside camp with spots showing he had marked his territory.  His tracks were all over the mountain so clearly we were in his back yard.

It was a great time but amazing amounts of work.  I'm satisfied on winter camping for a while.

Fox,
Thank you for the follow up on your trip. Glad to hear you had fun and understand the "satisfied with winter camping for a while."
 
Wish I could do stuff like that with my father. Heis a bit too beat up from recent knee surgery, recently found out he is diabetic and way out of shape.
 
So, I am content to live vicariously through you for some of your father son outtings. Hope you do not mind.
-Joe

To many hobbies, not enough time.

Thanks for the update. GLad things went well.

Our gas stove froze (not unexpected) so wood and fire became a very necessary item.

By gas was it propane? Iso Butane? - just curious.

Glad some of you enjoyed the story.  BigJoe live vicariously all you want.  I love that my father is still doing this type of thing.  He's determined to live to be 100 and it looks like he'll make it.  Knowing him he'll push off in his canoe on his 100th birthday to paddle into the sunset or some equally cliche thing.
     Jsquared, it was a propane stove.  It worked the first night but the valve froze open while we were using it.  Managed to thaw it using out hands and turn it off but it had broken the seal which made it useless for the rest of the trip.  Like I said not unexpected but worth a try.

Sounds like a great experience Fox, glad it went well.

Anything you'd like to change on your loadout next time? Perhaps self heating meals might have been worthwhile.
Will you be taking the propane stove again?

yep good deal,we are planning a hike camping trip soon.............

*MY LIFE IS TOO VALUABLE TO DEPEND ON A POS KNIFE*