Just watched reclaiming the blade

Curious I seen alot of blade grabing in the video and since most bastard swords and the like seem to be sharp tip to guard this doesn't seem like a good idea all my training is with the saber so dont fully understand medievil fighting but i would think you would want to avoid the blade. and also seen swinging the sword guard first like a club. Anyhow is this because they expect to be armoured or at least wearing gloves?

Better to be hated for what you are than loved for what your not

I think a lot of great swords and two handed swords had the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the blade unsharpened so that the sword could be used more effectively in close quarters.



Used like this even a greatsword could be a very versatile and maneuverable weapon, not nearly as clumsy as it looks at first glance.

In many cases, the combatants would be wearing gauntlets, some of which were lightly armored, so holding the blade was (is) not out of the question.  Besides, and correct me if I'm wrong here, the way one holds the blade can determine if it can be done without major risk to the fingers.

On the other hand, in some cases it could be a matter of losing a finger or losing the fight entirely.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

I can speak only for the German school of swordsmanship. But on the 2 main points:

It is sharpened all the way because there are techniques which bring the part of the blade closest to the guard to the neck to cut. Every part of this sword is used offensively and the defense is secondary. Its a very agressive form of swordsmanship and the idea is that the best defense is a good offense.

The sword should not be RAZOR sharp, just chisel sharp. You can still hack off limbs given the great leverage of this weapon and it allows you to be able to grip while wearing a gauntlet without (great) risk of cutting your own fingers. Further, apparently sweat from the leather padding of the gauntlet allows for an even better grip. But I have never tried this with a real sword, I only do this technique with wasters.

So its sharp enough to cut but dull enough that you can grab the blade for half swording or other close in techniques.

I'm just a man, but I'm trying to do better.

Dannycanuck, you're right.

Al the books and trainings i've read and followed tell that the medevil European swords where held at the blade for hitting with the pommel.

Further more, as they where wearing armour, the sword didn't cut through it, but was used to make the rough wounds and crush bones and flesh. Many knights died after the fight due to internal wounds and infections.

The razor sharp sword idee was from the Chinese and Japanese mostly. And in the later centuries it was needed for the rapiers, side swords and sabers. As in those day's men didn't wear any armour, due to the arrival of guns.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare a war.

I'd like to depart this world the same way I came into it - screaming and covered in someone else's blood"  

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ” Don B. Kates, Jr

I'm intrested in wheter "Reclaiming the Blade" spec. ed. has any section on sword training?
Think I read that somewhere, but can't seem to find it again, and anyways, if there is such a section does it actually teach you anything?

Thanks to Ti Lite and DannyC especially I bought the DVD "the Longsword of Johannes Lichtenauer vol. 1", and its great.
Now I want more DVD's to teach me.

Is reclaiming the Blade anything more than some history/documentary/movie?

Bellum se ipsum alet;
War feeds itself.

-Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.

My sword collection;
Grosse Messer, Chinese War Sword, Chisa Katana, Moro Barong, Napoleon Saber, 1917 Cutlass, O-Katana, (non CS) Shinken/Katana for Iaido, Two Handed Great Sword.

It's a documentary about swords in general

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

In the special edition there will be a tutorial, but i don't know how long that is.
I've ordered this dvd a week ago on ebay.
Was the cheapest place i could find it, including the shipping costs.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare a war.

I'd like to depart this world the same way I came into it - screaming and covered in someone else's blood"  

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ” Don B. Kates, Jr

tilite be careful on ebay the one I ordered said 2 disk rental set when it arrived it was single dvd and now i get no response from him (redtagmarket)

Better to be hated for what you are than loved for what your not

The training section (as I recall) was several clips of different people doing different training.  Good and interesting but not an actual tutorial.  I borrowed it from a student and enjoyed it but not going to be buying it.

As for grabbing a blade, so long as the hand doesn't slide on the blade, even a very sharp blade can be grabbed.  It's like the old tricks of monks walking on sharp swords.  As long as the foot doesn't slide and only has constant direct pressure you're pretty safe.  So if you grab the blade tightly (gloves helping) and don't let the blade slip at all you can use a sharp sword effectively from unexpected angles and attack with the guard.  The fact that the sword has a straight edge helps this as it allows more constant pressure spread over the entire area.  A saber would be more difficult as a curved blade could produce a pressure point that would negate the above principle.
    Please take this with a grain of salt it doesn't come from sword training but from teaching both biology and physics as well as many, many dissections on many species.

It is my understanding that it was also common to grab the other guys sword.  Scarred left hands were common to swordsmen in some eras, but that was better than a scarred lung.   I have heard this from some fencers who treat it as a martial art rather than a sport and do it in informal matches with the result of really annoying the sportsmen, but they are armed with documentation that it was a common technique.
My limited studies also verify what Dannycanuck and Ti lite say.  I have wondered if part of the difference is the armor encountered.  The Katana and scimitar having razor sharp edges  while swords designed for slamming against steel plate were better off with a chisel edge ?
Also agree, many deaths and crippling injuries seem to have been from internal injuries --what we would call blunt trauma.  With some arguing that such wounds were more effective than a "clean cut"

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

k8a7j7


tilite be careful on ebay the one I ordered said 2 disk rental set when it arrived it was single dvd and now i get no response from him (redtagmarket)

I've orered mine from moviemarz ( top seller 99,3% positive feedback ) so i hope for the best.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare a war.

I'd like to depart this world the same way I came into it - screaming and covered in someone else's blood"  

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ” Don B. Kates, Jr

I agree with Fox and DLyn.  Also, when these arts were in common usage, medical science was not what it is now, so in many cases infection would have been the actual cause of death, and one cut could easily introduce that.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

I haven't heard about grabbing your foe's blade, but there are various techniques for brushing aside a blade with an open palm directed at the flat of the blade.

I'm just a man, but I'm trying to do better.

Grabbing the opponent's blade is not uncommon in what I am learning, it's often followed by a pommel strike to the face.  Ultimately, the goal is to kill the opponent, it doesn't always matter how.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

Oh yes on the infection.  Before germ theory was really even understood it was realized that getting cloth (usually dirty cloth) in a wound was deadly.  So much so that there was a Dr who got in a pistol duel.  He showed up on the appointed morning and took his position, then dropped his long overcoat.  Plum neked underneath.  It so disconcerted the other guy that he refused to fight, saying "I am not going to shoot a naked man."
They might not have understood the whys and wherefores---but they knew cloth in a wound was bad.    Similar stories about blade dueling--Such that it was common to duel topless.  For men and women incidentally.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

I would like to know why grabbing a blade is ever considered at all. Unless you have to choose between getting your hand cut or your head cut off. I imagine that you'd be pretty worthless if your hand was bleeding with a massive cut across your hand. You'd certainly have to get a killing blow out of such a move, otherwise you'd be done. I have never seen, or read anywhere in the German tradition about this being considered. I can't imagine a case where this is the best choice.

I'm just a man, but I'm trying to do better.

I think this was mostly with thrusting swords.  My very limited impression is when the other guy has made a thrust and left his blade hanging out there too long you might grab and immobilize it while you step in and deliver a fatal thrust ?   Perhaps also in those situations where the sword is being used much like a staff weapon ?  If the guy wielding the sword can use a hand on the blade so can the opponent.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

Getting a grip on the opponent's blade can also prove useful in throwing them off-balance.  I've only seen it done twice, so describing exactly how it's done is beyond me for now, but Harleian does have a rather interesting move in which the opposing blade is grabbed and combined with a twisting action that both leaves the opponent on the ground face-down, but also disarms them.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

When you've got gaunlets like these:



Than ýou can get a good grip on your opponents blade, without hurting yourself.
Grabbing of the blade was mostly done when you've blocked a blow, or locked his blade. Grabbing it while it was comming down on you in full speed wasn't done ( much ), cause that could cost you some limbs.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare a war.

I'd like to depart this world the same way I came into it - screaming and covered in someone else's blood"  

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ” Don B. Kates, Jr

Based on my experience, (Nearly 30 yrs with a blade)any truly sharp blade...even one that is chisel sharp, should not be grabbed unless desperate. The first instinct, and by my training, if someone grabs my blade I am taught to jerk on it. Given any sort of edge at all, this will lead to a bad cut, unless wearing steel gauntlets. As far as grabbing your own blade, this is a matter of your own training or desperation. Only you know how sharp, and what part of your blade you might be able to get away with grabbing. Anything you do in a real fight that gives you the edge to quickly end things can be to your benefit. Sword fighting is, after all a deadly business. I might also comment on the (at least) two different types of sword combat...single....and as part of a military or other group. Each requires its very own types of training. Many forget this fact, when they are training and/or thinking about the Sword.

One breath,
One Cut,
One Victory,

And not every blade has a double edge.
A falchion and a Schottish Broad Sword have / can have a single edge.
Just like the sabers.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare a war.

I'd like to depart this world the same way I came into it - screaming and covered in someone else's blood"  

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. ” Don B. Kates, Jr

Grayfox1960


Based on my experience, (Nearly 30 yrs with a blade)any truly sharp blade...even one that is chisel sharp, should not be grabbed unless desperate. The first instinct, and by my training, if someone grabs my blade I am taught to jerk on it. Given any sort of edge at all, this will lead to a bad cut, unless wearing steel gauntlets.

This is my problem with it. Even steel gauntlets have leather and not steel on the palms. The best palm protection would be what Ti Lite showed with the chain mail gloves. However you can't really half sword with these...

I'm just a man, but I'm trying to do better.

"any truly sharp blade"..."unless desperate."

I think therein is where people have trouble.   The assumption that all swords have a sharp edge.   As blade nuts we all want everything we have to shave the hairs off a flea.   But historically many blades were not sharp.  Examine a military bayonet for example.  Many of those I have seen would not cut butter.  I have not had the opportunity to physically handle many antique swords, but what I have read indicates the same was true of many of them.  Especially with thrusting swords ---as mentioned, this would be a techniques used with point weapons, not edge weapons--both due to the relative sharpness, and the improbability of catching a weapon swung at you vs one thrust towards you.

"Unless Desperate"   Absolutely.  I suspect this was a desperation move.  "This guy is better than me and is about to stick that thing in me and "play with my internal organs".  
 Tends to make a guy desperate.  
I said in my initial post---when I first became aware of this it was in the context of scarred left hands.   Considering those left hands probably had at least a leather glove on them, that indicates a pretty bad cut even with protection.   Still better than a cut on internal organs.   And yes of course the other guy is going to be yanking and twisting his blade away.  But at the same time the guy holding your blade is not just standing there playing tug of war with your sword.   He has your blade trapped for a whole half sec.   Plenty of time to insert his own somewhere more important

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

Many historians go on the presumption that because many of the blades that have survived 200 or more years are not sharp, that no one at that time knew how to keep a blade sharp. I maintain that without regular care the edge of a carbon steel blade will oxidize and become blunt in just a very few years(I have seen this happen in as little as 5 years when only using natural oils for protection). Our ancestors knew very well the difference between sharp and blunt, and anyone that depended on a blade for their life, given a choice, will keep their blade sharp.

One breath,
One Cut,
One Victory,

All true.   But then how many hunters fire their rifles only once a year in deer season and do not know how to sight them in ?  There is a long list of horror stories about cops and their total ignorance and abuse of the guns in their holster.  I will just share one I know of personally.  Upon observing that the hammer was completely broken off of his revolver---(not just the hammer spur--the hammer) --- he commented "Well thats OK, it will still work double action"  
And in the military a certain OFFICER (fortunately not one of ours) who did not know what those things on the top of his gun barrel were for (the sights).  Just because individuals carry weapons---and even USE them, does not equate to knowing how to use or care for them.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

That is all so very true....I have observed some of the same types of things with my involvement with law enforcement over the years. I have also known many more professional soldiers and law enforcement folks that you would NEVER want to go up against. They are very aware that their lives depend on their training and equipment.
All that being said, it all depends on the individual, I for one, will only depend on equipment, and training, that will give me every advantage, and all the potential I can get, to preserve my own life and the lives of others.

One breath,
One Cut,
One Victory,

Lets be honest here, we're discussing thousands of years of edged weapon combat.  From my understanding there were many years, areas and countries in which blades were carried as sharp as possible.  I've never known a historian who actually thought our ancestors couldn't keep a blade sharp.  I have met many who believed that during certain times and in certain areas they chose not to.  For example going against heavily steal plated armor some people would choose a blunt smashing object over sharp cutting.  The idea being like taking a hammer to a can of tuna.  Likewise some rapier and small swords were needle sharp points but no edge.  Other blades, eras and areas different mentality.
     To say that blades were carried dull or sharp is ignorant.  We have to admit that different people in different times would choose different things.  Over on the self defense forums somebody talked about attending a new knife seminar in which the instructor recommended carrying a dull blade.  There are just too many thousands of people to say any one thing did or did not happen.
     As far as grabbing a blade there does seem to be historical evidence.  We have drawing and even "fencing" manuals depicting it.  In desperation grabbing vs. dying we all seem to agree a grab would work.

     We are also overlooking beating the weapon.  I loved a beat, disengage, lunge combo when fencing.  From the manuals I've seen many of the "grabs" were more "beats" with the off hand.  This could momentarily get the opponents blade off angle, away from your center line and open you up to a lethal attack.

Very good observations Fox .
I maintain that the people of any age, were the same as you and me. Capable of the same levels, and cross sections of Intelligence, and observation.
My personal take on the grabbing the blade idea is.....beating the opponents blade and possibly grabbing ones own. This covers my own training with Asian edged weapons, and more recent (the last 5 years) training in European saber's and defence.
I will leave grabbing an opponents (unknown sharpness) blade to others.

One breath,
One Cut,
One Victory,

Grayfox,
     Thanks, people are people.
    I've seen little evidence of blade grabbing in any of the asian arts.  Many wrist attacks and joint disarms but little blade grabbing.  In the European arts i've seen the evidence of it being historically accurate.

     As far as my own training this isn't something i'm going to focus on.  Since I don't do as much sword work as i once did when I do train I'm going to be working on fundamental techniques not grabbing a blade.  Like you its not my choice in a fight but it seems to be other peoples'