youtube knife defense video

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Harlech
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youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 12:15 AM
Strange video on youtube about the difficulty (futility) of directly defending against a knife attack.  Forgive me if its been posted here before.

Its pretty grim but possibly accurate assessment of the danger a knife wielding attacker poses.

WARNING: the video has graphic photos of  actual cut wounds @ about 5-6 minutes in.  Not safe for work, children, or those with a weak stomach.  (Not kidding on this, the photos aren't gastly, but they do show organs that should be on the inside, lying on the outside)

Anyone with direct experience want to weigh in?
check out the video at
"knife defense in martial arts is a myth"
(I changed it from a hot link--Dlyn454
<message edited by dlyn454 on Monday, March 29, 2010 8:58 PM>
Not strong, only aggressive.  Not free, only licensed.  Not compassionate only polite.  Not good but well behaved; chasing after death so we could call ourselves brave.


g_core18
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 12:37 AM
I have a friend in the police force and he told me that they can open fire at someone with a knife at 40 feet. Someone can close that distance in a couple of seconds and in the heat of the action the officer may fumble abit when drawing their firearm.
Its a good video for people who think they can win a knife fight because they have practiced or have training.

Hid_dendragon
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 1:23 AM
Man.... That's scary! My Sensei told us to run if we get into a knife fight. He told us that if we couldn't get out we should take something like a jacket (if you have one) or your t-shirt and to then wrap it around one arm. Won't be much use against a big, sharp knife but it's still better than nothing. There is a lot to be learned from this video. Don't get cocky or think you will win because you have a bigger knife is one imo.
You are not what you were born but what you have it in yourself to be.

Sarafan
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 3:21 AM
Cool video, I enjoyed the guy playing congas during the knife fight :).

I've never had a knife drawn on me/or drew one against another person. I have only drawn a knife one time that I can remember off the top of my head. It was when I saw a large loose dog that didn't look to friendly running over to me. I didn't end up having to test my x2's stabbing ability atleast.
Loud and Proud.

grindermcgee
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 3:26 AM
Did you know there is a video sub forum here? Also there is a Self Defense sub forum that would be a perfect place for you to post a topic like this.

Please help out our mods by posting in the correct place so that people interested can find and revisit this conversation.


Snax
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 5:20 AM
I have done a little knife defence training in my Aikido class and it was eye opening to say the least! We used washable markers and wore old t-shirts to simulate the knife and cuts left after "defending" ourselves. A girl who had only been to class a few times would have sliced me to bits in under one minute! Best defence is get the hell out of there PERIOD.
San Mai Trailmaster , San Mai Natchez Bowie/Southern Comfort, 2 True Flight Throwers, Kobun Tanto, Steel Tiger, Serrated Point Guard


jankerson
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 5:57 AM
A lot of people think it's like the movies, it's not and MA really doesn't do much good most of the time.

Best thing to do is run.
Natchez Bowie, San Mai III Trailmaster, SK-5 Trail Master (MARTEMP), Laredo Bowie (Carbon V Made in USA), Original 5 3/4" Tanto (1986), Mini Bushman, 2 Spikes, Recon 1 (Old), Recon 1 (New), Hatamoto, Black Talon, 4" Voyager, Gunsite II, Gunsite, Recon Tanto Carbon V, Black Rhino, Rajah 1, American Lawman G10 Vers, 2010 Recon 1.

jsquared
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 7:02 AM
Exactly, my years of martial arts training has taught me I don't ever want to be in a knife fight.  Run.

jankerson
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 7:09 AM
jsquared


Exactly, my years of martial arts training has taught me I don't ever want to be in a knife fight.  Run.


Yep, even if it's a pissed off woman with a kitchen knife, get the hell out of there fast.
 
It's better to run and live.
Natchez Bowie, San Mai III Trailmaster, SK-5 Trail Master (MARTEMP), Laredo Bowie (Carbon V Made in USA), Original 5 3/4" Tanto (1986), Mini Bushman, 2 Spikes, Recon 1 (Old), Recon 1 (New), Hatamoto, Black Talon, 4" Voyager, Gunsite II, Gunsite, Recon Tanto Carbon V, Black Rhino, Rajah 1, American Lawman G10 Vers, 2010 Recon 1.

dlyn454
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 7:51 AM
People imagine it is like the movies--with guns the fastest draw wins and walks away untouched.  If he gets shot, as soon as they dig the bullet out he is ready to go to the dance.   In a knife fight they fence for a while and one guy gets stuck and lays down clutching the knife and gives a speech and closes his eyes.   
We are delicate creatures.  think of all the times you have accidentally cut yourself.   Now think of someone TRYING to cut you up.   To a sharp knife your body is about as substantual as a tomato.  
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796 Psalms 144:1 Blessed be Jehovah my rock, Who teacheth my hands to war, And my fingers to fight:

HotSoup
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 10:07 AM
Damn.
Thanks for posting this.

Keeps us checked into reality.

If someone ever drew a knife on me, I'd either comply with what they were asking i.e. my wallet, money

or

I'd run as fast as possible.

This is why I believe in pepper spray. I always always, no matter what have very easily accessible. Pray and Spray!

jlauffer
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 10:23 AM
Sometimes it amazes me that cops don't walk around with their guns drawn all the time....
Sworn to avenge...Condemned to hell...Tempt not the blade...All fear the Sentinel

Character is to Man what Carbon is to Steel

jankerson
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 10:24 AM
Yes reality is often not looked on favorably in most places.

There are tons of the macho types and MA that think they are Jet Li with huge chips on their shoulders.

The graveyards are filled with such types.
Natchez Bowie, San Mai III Trailmaster, SK-5 Trail Master (MARTEMP), Laredo Bowie (Carbon V Made in USA), Original 5 3/4" Tanto (1986), Mini Bushman, 2 Spikes, Recon 1 (Old), Recon 1 (New), Hatamoto, Black Talon, 4" Voyager, Gunsite II, Gunsite, Recon Tanto Carbon V, Black Rhino, Rajah 1, American Lawman G10 Vers, 2010 Recon 1.

Picksmith
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 11:25 AM
Thanks for the link Harlech. 

James
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 11:33 AM
German police officers...never seen any on the tube, and here they still wear the old uniforms. Good tips though. Thanks for the vid, I told my students never to engage in a knife fight when we talked about the fatal stabbings in London, it's better to run and live like jankerson said.

RD
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 2:06 PM
If nothing else if you can't avoid the fight it re-enforces rule #1 "MOVE OFF THE FORCE LINE" don't get caught standing still or flat footed. I was amazed that not a single one of the officers moved out of the way of a charging suspect, armed or not, get out of the way and draw what ever defensive tool you have. It is not a 100% sure method of keeping from harm, but it is better than standing still.

jlauffer
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 2:20 PM
RD


If nothing else if you can't avoid the fight it re-enforces rule #1 "MOVE OFF THE FORCE LINE" don't get caught standing still or flat footed. I was amazed that not a single one of the officers moved out of the way of a charging suspect, armed or not, get out of the way and draw what ever defensive tool you have. It is not a 100% sure method of keeping from harm, but it is better than standing still.


Agree 100%
 
Maybe they were told not to move for the simulations in order to focus on the main point of someone being able to close the distance quickly.  Moving around, although more realistic, may have diluted the message they were trying to send. 
Sworn to avenge...Condemned to hell...Tempt not the blade...All fear the Sentinel

Character is to Man what Carbon is to Steel

mike65
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 2:27 PM
Run, run faster than you can. Better be a bunny alive than a dead lion!Real life is not a movie where you can see a disarmed man against three or four armed with knives and win. Run and shout !

grindermcgee
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 2:43 PM
HotSoup


Damn.
Thanks for posting this.

Keeps us checked into reality.

If someone ever drew a knife on me, I'd either comply with what they were asking i.e. my wallet, money

or

I'd run as fast as possible.

This is why I believe in pepper spray. I always always, no matter what have very easily accessible. Pray and Spray!


Are you sure you aren't an imposter who is just using HotSoups computer and filling it with common sense?

Of course there are many variables to consider, but using a distraction like pepper spray or a face full of pocket change, if you already have it in your hand, can create the fraction of a second you need to RUN LIKE HELL!!

RD
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 2:58 PM

Maybe they were told not to move for the simulations in order to focus on the main point of someone being able to close the distance quickly. Moving around, although more realistic, may have diluted the message they were trying to send.

 
Your probably right, it is just so natural to me having taught that for about 12 years. It might not have been as good at driving the point home, if one of them had moved a couple of feet and put a couple of double taps into the BG.

Harlech
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 3:34 PM
Freak Show Scott


It is a real wake up call about what it means to try to kill-defend with a knife.  Anyone who is looking forward to the chance to use their knife and skills in this manner should have a clear Idea of what that really means.   It's good to be reminded or what the end results are. 


A related point the movie brings up- in the police officer exercise, the vast majority of the officers didnt even SEE the knife being drawn, brandished, and verbally threatened.
 
Something to consider for people who think that they may be able to scare off an opponent by brandishing a weapon.  If your opponent is worked up there is a good chance he won't even see the 4 inch ti-lite you've just pulled out.
Not strong, only aggressive.  Not free, only licensed.  Not compassionate only polite.  Not good but well behaved; chasing after death so we could call ourselves brave.


Adam2670
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 4:05 PM
Yeah, I carry a knife to cut stuff and I carry a Glock because other people carry knives and I run like a girl :)



dlyn454
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Monday, March 29, 2010 9:26 PM
Regarding officers not moving appropriately.  Its mindset.  In mortal situations most people do not think, they react.  And if they have not trained their reactions realistically they just stand there and do nothing.  Unfortunatly Macho bragging "If I am ever attacked with a knife I will take it away from the punk and make him eat it"   does not count as real trained reaction or effective mindset.  When reality hits the fan they reach into their bag of plans and find nothing,  so do nothing. 

During war there are recorded instances of troops standing facing each other bewildered because the other guys were too close for hand grenades and too far for bayonets.  -- didn't occur to them to use those bang bang things.
Americans had an advantage in this regard as more of them have a reflex to go to the gun.  A couple weeks of rudimentary training doesn't build that reflex in someone who had never seen a real one before.


"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796 Psalms 144:1 Blessed be Jehovah my rock, Who teacheth my hands to war, And my fingers to fight:

grindermcgee
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:24 AM
dlyn454


*snip*

  Unfortunatly Macho bragging "If I am ever attacked with a knife I will take it away from the punk and make him eat it"   does not count as real trained reaction or effective mindset.  When reality hits the fan they reach into their bag of plans and find nothing,  so do nothing. 



One question, when reality hits the fan, does it still smell like yesterdays bad Thai food?

fox
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:11 AM
So I debated what I would post here or if I would post anything.  First good video, its been on my list of favorites on my YouTube account for quite some time.  The guy playing bongos during the simulated fight is Paul Vunak.  one of the best knife fighters going.  
     I've conducted tests in the gym with simulated knives and airsoft guns.  I would say that the video is correct but at points actually underestimates the distance.  Anything under 20 feet and I would rate the knife as more dangerous.  So stay 25 or more back for safety sake.  I've worked with police departments that say 30 feet distance should be maintained and others that say 20.  The more the better if dealing with a knife.  I personally prefer several blocks away but hey.
     I said it in another forum but this brings back into account my opinion that the only useful weapon is one that's already in your hand.  Somebody on here said it's amazing police don't walk around with their guns drawn all the time.  The truth is that would be more effective.  It's also why I talk and train so much in deployment and why my hand rests on my knife most of the time.  

     Defending yourself against someone who really wants you dead with a knife is insanely difficult.  In the Haganah approach they train a great deal against knife threats.  The inherent difference of the person wanting something from you therefore preferring you alive makes a world of difference.  It also deals a great deal with the psychology and drilling the proper reactions.

     The part I really debate about writing on here... I walk around with a scar over my ribs from a knife.  It was a thin blade so the scar isn't wide and most people don't notice it even with my shirt off.  Fortunately over the years it has gotten much fainter.  The blade went in, hit a rib and bounced sideways under the skin.  The fact that it was an awkward bad stab and my ribs were there saved me.  No I won't share the story as I was young and stupid, we all have made mistakes.  I will say that it hurt, like getting punched very hard followed by a burning sensation.


SPOOKYSHOGUN
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:01 PM
fox
 
   I've conducted tests in the gym with simulated knives and airsoft guns.  I would say that the video is correct but at points actually underestimates the distance.  Anything under 20 feet and I would rate the knife as more dangerous.  So stay 25 or more back for safety sake.  I've worked with police departments that say 30 feet distance should be maintained and others that say 20.  The more the better if dealing with a knife.  I personally prefer several blocks away but hey.
    I said it in another forum but this brings back into account my opinion that the only useful weapon is one that's already in your hand.  Somebody on here said it's amazing police don't walk around with their guns drawn all the time.  The truth is that would be more effective.  It's also why I talk and train so much in deployment and why my hand rests on my knife most of the time.   

 
+1 on pretty much all of the points you made.  
 
Also, there is quite a difference between the distances police train and generally try to engage knifer's at compared to civilians and what happens in that reality. The knifer is almost always going to get into conversation distance with a civilian before the "pop goes the weasel" surprise and it's usually on their terms. At least police engage on their terms for the most part. Civilians usually engage on the bad guy's terms which negates presentation of a gun at 20+ feet. Awareness may lead to suspicion of a bad guy if he's headed your way but unless his weapon is already out, he's an unknown quantity, a stranger. So, civilians are faced with assessing strangers and deciding: A-Turn tail and leave or B-Establish or submit to contact (warn away or be pleasant). Option C-Draw gun, doesn't come into play at the 20+ foot range.
 
The tactical folder supporters will like this next part.
 
I wholeheartedly agree that having a weapon in hand in advance is of the most benefit to survival and for civilians I would place that right under awareness and avoidance (unlike police and the "duty to act"). I also spoke about this on another forum back in 2004 and I actually made a YouTube video about it recently. 
 
It's just a matter of finding a weapon that you can do that with (depending on your laws) as a civilian without brandishing a weapon. Law enforcement may present firearms when dangerous cues are present but civilians cannot. That being the case, in my state and locale, I advocate resting the hand on the knife (FOLDER) but if feeling uncomfortable about something/someone, drawing the knife into hand (DISCREETLY) from where it can be opened and used if necessary. Follow-up would be the same as the standard stranger reactions, only you have a "POSSIBLE" weapon already in hand: A-Turn tail and leave or B-Establish or submit to contact (warn away or be pleasant). If something pops off, you already have 75% of deployment covered. Doesn't get much better then that.
 
One could always wait for a stranger to brandish and attack. Then one could try to index and draw a weapon from concealment. Unlikely and yet widely taught. Anyway's that's my 2 cents.  Your results with that approach may vary. In my state and locale it's o.k., in yours it may be brandishing. 
 
Even if you disagree with that approach, there isn't anywhere that a civilian can walk around with a fixed blade or firearm in hand without having brandished a weapon.  


fox
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Wednesday, March 31, 2010 9:46 AM
Spookyshogun, 
     I literally just told a story in which I did exactly what you described on the awareness and how to develop it thread, check it out.  This was monday night after class but I took the approach you talk about just about word for word.  I like your approach it seems riddled with common sense, something many people don't use.


grindermcgee
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Friday, April 02, 2010 2:22 PM
SPOOKYSHOGUN
   
If something pops off, you already have 75% of deployment covered. Doesn't get much better then that.


I see folders as 3 part opening. Draw, open, grip. Having it in hand or hand resting on the pocket may not be 33.3% of the problem solved, but doesn't seem like 75% either.

SPOOKYSHOGUN
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Friday, April 02, 2010 7:56 PM
grindermcgee


SPOOKYSHOGUN
   
If something pops off, you already have 75% of deployment covered. Doesn't get much better then that.


I see folders as 3 part opening. Draw, open, grip. Having it in hand or hand resting on the pocket may not be 33.3% of the problem solved, but doesn't seem like 75% either.


Like all statistics, this doesn't necessarily represent everyone's truth but for me, once I have a folder in my hand, I've succeeded in 75% of deployment considering that with my particular skillset, even closed in the hand it is effectively a Yawara stick. For others it may indeed be different. My breakdown of full deployment of a folder is almost the same as yours but I recognize 4 distinct steps, indexing the knife being the first. You must get your hand on it first before you can draw and proceed to the opening and then the grip.   
 
What I was trying to say essentially is that it is to your advantage to negate the fine motor skill necessary for rapid deployment of a folder by indexing and drawing the knife on an advanced time schedule that's based on active awareness and threat detection. That is preferable to waiting for "it to hit the fan" and then trying to do all 4 steps quickly. So I'd compromise with you on the issue and concede that given 4 steps, getting the folder into hand ahead of time is 50% of deployment, more then 50% if you are skilled in Yawara or Kubotan use. Resting the hand on the knife/indexing is then 25%.  
 
I am not saying that one shouldn't practice quick or stress deployment though. That is useful too. You never know. You could be surprised. The other way is just preferable.  

grindermcgee
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Friday, April 02, 2010 8:56 PM
Very reasonable. Thank you for the explanation.

arnisador
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Re:youtube knife defense video - Saturday, April 03, 2010 5:05 PM
There are a couple of things I found interesting about this that I would like to share.  This is my opinion, but it is built on over 15 years of combatives and martial arts training, mainly in Filipino Martial Arts.  Please bare with me as I tend to get a little long winded about this stuff.

I have to say that the video was very honest and true.  First of all the video was called "knife defence in martial arts is a myth", yet half the video was taken from a dvd on filipino martial arts knife handling and defence.  So maybe the video should have been called "most knife defence in martial arts is a myth."   

Also most of the scenarios showing the minimum distance to access a gun was very important but probably not new to any of us who have practiced FMA or any form or reality based combatives for any length of time.  The important thing to consider is that many criminals, if not most criminals will try to get close to you before they attack.  They will charm, sneak, weazle, beg, lie, and cheat there way close to you to close the distance and take you unaware.  If you are not in the habit of being real assertive about your distance with strangers they will close the distance with you before they attack. 

This is why it is very important to listen to your intuition about people and always be aware of their hands at all times if they are closing with you.  If they feel wrong you need to be able to tell them to back the **** off!  You will look like an **** to the uninitiated but to the criminal you will look like a hard target.  He will likely move on. 

unfortunately since we live in a culture that allows people to close the distance with us on a daily basis you may not realize things have gone awry until the bad guys are right in your face.  This sucks but it is the reality of living in our modern world.  

The main thing to realize is that the best you can do empty hand against a knife is make distance.  If that is not possible then you must work for damage control while trying to either destroy your attacker or making distance to access a weapon.  The idea of staying close and fighting a knife wielder is very dangerous thinking even if you are highly trained but unless you are omnipotent you just may not be able to choose your battle ground or what weapons are available to you.  This video does a great job of illustrating the dangers of a knife fight, however hard realistic training and good tactics can allow you to survive a knife assault.  Some martial arts and martial artist do teach this.