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 What knives DON'T have a full tang?

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X6488

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What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:37 PM ( #1 )
I just recently heard that the Laredo bowie doesn't support a full tang. I was always under the impression that all Cold Steel products had a full tang.

Are there others?
Sarafan

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:42 PM ( #2 )
You can use the search feature on the forums to find the answer to what the Laredo's Tang is like. Also you can find tons of topics, and posts on specific models and there tang.
 
*Edit Here is the link only took about 5 seconds with the search.
http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?m=30975&high=Laredo+Tang+Wire
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X6488

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:16 PM ( #3 )
Sarafan


You can use the search feature on the forums to find the answer to what the Laredo's Tang is like. Also you can find tons of topics, and posts on specific models and there tang.
 
*Edit Here is the link only took about 5 seconds with the search.
http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?m=30975&high=Laredo+Tang+Wire

Thanks for the search, but it wasn't the Laredo's tang that I was interested in finding more about; rather, it was what prompted me to make the topic.

My question was if there were other Cold Steel products with non-full tangs so I can be absolutely sure to avoid them. I have a thing against non-full tangs...
RD

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:56 PM ( #4 )
Just kinda of curious as to why you are so set against anything without a full tang, and what is your definition of full tang? Because it means different things to different people. The most common stress point in any knife will be near the guard or where the blade meets the handle not somewhere on the handle. I have always wondered why there is for lack of a better word prejudice on non full tang knives, I for one would put a Laredo up against most any knife full tang or not and not have any concern about it's strength or durability.
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fudo

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:09 PM ( #5 )
Just for the record, I always choose a full tang over any other method of handle attachment also. It's a strength issue for me as well.
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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:33 PM ( #6 )
Well I have heard a lot of things about Spring Tang or Wire Tang or something, and most were rather positive...
Sarafan

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:39 PM ( #7 )
I think the majority of CS fixed blades are "full encapsulated Tang" here is a quote from CS's FAQ section.

Q: Do all Cold Steel knives have a full tang?
Full tang construction is an important consideration when evaluating the strength of a knife. Originally, "full tang" meant a handle in which the edges of the tang are visible all around the outside of the hilt, so that the tang is fully as wide as the knife handle. However, with the advent of "driven-on" Kraton® handles, full tang has come to mean that a very substantial tang extends completely through the center of the handle right to the back of the pommel. This describes the tangs on all premium Cold Steel knives.
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sonoranscott

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:02 AM ( #8 )
The "affordable" line in 4116 have tangs that are pretty substantial, but only go through about half the handle. These would be: Roach Belly, Finn Bear, Finn Wolf, Canadian Belt knife, Western Hunter, and Long Hunter. I have no concerns about the strength of any of these knives, however, especially in the intended general utility roles for which they were designed.  I don't know about the Natchez, Military Classic, Sisu, or the kitchen series, but I'm pretty sure everything else has a "full" tang (i.e.,  integral with the blade and extending to the end of the handle).  The Recon Scout, Trailmaster, SRK, Recon Tanto, OSS, OSI, Gurkha Kukri, Safemakers, Braveheart, Counter Tacs, Pendleton Hunters, and Master Hunters (and 1 or 2 I may be forgetting) should all meet this definition of full tang. The same could be said of the now discontinued Kobun, UWK, ODA, and PeaceKeepers (should you happen upon any still for sale). The Tanto line, the Tai Pan, and the Outdoorsman should be of the same contruction, but with the addition of a small threaded bit at the very end of the tang that their pommels screw onto.

With that, my brain is officially fried and I need to get to bed. I hope that helps you some.  See you dudes tomorrow.
 
Pfft! I see Sarafan just beat me to the punch with a much simpler explanation.  G'night!
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philwar

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:13 AM ( #9 )
Sarafan


I think the majority of CS fixed blades are "full encapsulated Tang" here is a quote from CS's FAQ section.

Q: Do all Cold Steel knives have a full tang?
Full tang construction is an important consideration when evaluating the strength of a knife. Originally, "full tang" meant a handle in which the edges of the tang are visible all around the outside of the hilt, so that the tang is fully as wide as the knife handle. However, with the advent of "driven-on" Kraton® handles, full tang has come to mean that a very substantial tang extends completely through the center of the handle right to the back of the pommel. This describes the tangs on all premium Cold Steel knives.


LOL. I love CS, I really do, but their redefining what 'full tang' means is hilarious. Cold Steel makes almost no full tang knives. The Konjo's are full tang, and that's about it AFAIK.

The reason people prefer full tang is that it is stronger, period. Sometimes (often?) the added strength is purely theoretical, as the tang will never be tested to its full potential, but in principle, a full tang knife is stronger than a rat tail or hidden tang. Also, full tang construction always adds weight, and as stated, often adds no practical benefit.
The tang of the Trailmaster and the Recon Scout (and I assume many other models) may be called full hidden (which is a contradiction) because they are not rat tail, ie they are wider than that. They are also the same thickness as the blade, and in practice I can't think of what it would take to make it fail.
But if they were full tang, they'd be stronger still.
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thedragon.blue

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:49 AM ( #10 )
personally im not too concerned about the tang configuration in the CS line.  the proof vids show what these knives are capable of no matter the configuration.  i have no doubt the knives i own will perfom up to my standards.  if you have a specific knife in mind, im sure a call to CS customer service would get your question answered for you.  they are always very helpful with any questions i have. 
            
wildjim

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:29 AM ( #11 )
philwar


Sarafan


I think the majority of CS fixed blades are "full encapsulated Tang" here is a quote from CS's FAQ section.

Q: Do all Cold Steel knives have a full tang?
Full tang construction is an important consideration when evaluating the strength of a knife. Originally, "full tang" meant a handle in which the edges of the tang are visible all around the outside of the hilt, so that the tang is fully as wide as the knife handle. However, with the advent of "driven-on" Kraton® handles, full tang has come to mean that a very substantial tang extends completely through the center of the handle right to the back of the pommel. This describes the tangs on all premium Cold Steel knives.


LOL. I love CS, I really do, but their redefining what 'full tang' means is hilarious. Cold Steel makes almost no full tang knives. The Konjo's are full tang, and that's about it AFAIK.

The reason people prefer full tang is that it is stronger, period. Sometimes (often?) the added strength is purely theoretical, as the tang will never be tested to its full potential, but in principle, a full tang knife is stronger than a rat tail or hidden tang. Also, full tang construction always adds weight, and as stated, often adds no practical benefit.
The tang of the Trailmaster and the Recon Scout (and I assume many other models) may be called full hidden (which is a contradiction) because they are not rat tail, ie they are wider than that. They are also the same thickness as the blade, and in practice I can't think of what it would take to make it fail.
But if they were full tang, they'd be stronger still.


I agree. Its either full tang or it isn't. I want to know what I am buying under the handle. I would prefer full tang but I have many that are not and are just as useful. Its a nice reassurance to have the steel showing at through back of the handle full tang or otherwise. I would surely buy a knife of this design over another that is not full tang if given a choice. 
RD

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:39 AM ( #12 )
I look at the whole full tang being stronger like the 9mm vs. 45, or revolver vs. auto. They all may have advantages and disadvantages. When it comes down to it, it may be more personal preference or preconceived ideals that influence a decision. Is a full tang construction of a knife stronger possibly, but are you going to notice it I doubt it, since the stress point will not be in the tang. With modern engineering, and metallurgy I don't think that a knife with a full tang would offer a significant advantage over one without, after all it is usually the sharp end that I am concerned with in the first place. All that being said anyone is free to choose whatever they please, I know that if I was given a second Laredo or a Natches (assuming that it is the same construction) I sure wouldn't turn it down because it doesn't have a full tang.
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dlyn454

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:41 AM ( #13 )
Well for whatever reason CS likes the fully Kraton (or other material) covered handles and to do that you are going to have to reduce the width of the tang.enough to leave a substantual thickness of kraton.  That picture I posted of my home made knife in the OSS section has a full width tang but I enclosed it in micarta.  The result is the handle is wider than the blade.  I don't care for the looks myself and did not do that again.   But those are your choices. 
A full width tang with extra wide kraton handle. 
A full width tang with slab handle
Or the existing style CS handle.
Has anyone seen a CS knife where the tang failed ?
(actually that knife I made has a split tang with hollow handle steel tube in between---but it is "full WIDTH"
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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:55 AM ( #14 )
dlyn454


Well for whatever reason CS likes the fully Kraton (or other material) covered handles and to do that you are going to have to reduce the width of the tang.enough to leave a substantual thickness of kraton.  That picture I posted of my home made knife in the OSS section has a full width tang but I enclosed it in micarta.  The result is the handle is wider than the blade.  I don't care for the looks myself and did not do that again.   But those are your choices. 
A full width tang with extra wide kraton handle. 
A full width tang with slab handle
Or the existing style CS handle.
Has anyone seen a CS knife where the tang failed ?
(actually that knife I made has a split tang with hollow handle steel tube in between---but it is "full WIDTH"
 
  
Most of the failures I've seen of any knife on the internet photos and videos happen at the tip and or ricasso. I personally have only ever broken the tip of a knife and no Cold Steel knife I own has broken in use which is usually camping duties such as chopping and batoning wood for the camp fire over a weekend.
 
Anyway I still prefer a full tang as I imagine the handle being crushed or damaged and the knife still useable or the handle replaceable.
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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:59 AM ( #15 )
dlyn454


Well for whatever reason CS likes the fully Kraton (or other material) covered handles and to do that you are going to have to reduce the width of the tang.enough to leave a substantual thickness of kraton.

And they have a very valid reason for doing so. Particularly the four bowies are intended for chopping, or at least chopping can be foreseen. A full tang knife can be really uncomfortable to the hands, the shock reverberates from the point of impact all through the blade and tang. This can get unbearable without gloves.


Has anyone seen a CS knife where the tang failed ?

Not me. And unless you do a noss4-style side impact test with the blade in a vise and a 3-pound mallet to the handle, I don't think it will ever happen.


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MattBlack

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:40 AM ( #16 )
The blade tang may be a little stronger with a Full tang, but the handle is weaker and can come apart much more easily than a handle that's injection moulded around an encapsulated tang.
Plus the vibration effect, as philwar noted, and it also conducts heat away from you in cold weather. And is not electrically insulated.

I personally am more concerned with the length of the tang than the width (within reason). A well constructed and installed rat tail is fine, but I confess to having an issue with half length or less tangs.
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dlyn454

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:25 AM ( #17 )
So it seems to me that most of the problem is with  Cold Steels --shall I say 'liberal' use of the term 'Full Tang' 
With that I would agree.  It irks people. (with some justification).  Might be better if they just said "one tough honking tang !"
 
But I try to ignore marketing hype anyhow.  I was concerned, but then I watched 'em chopping wood with it and decided not to worry.
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Sarafan

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:34 PM ( #18 )
hey hey guys I was posting what CS says! I don't even own a full encapsulated cs knife haha :)
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X6488

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:39 PM ( #19 )
Thanks for all the comments guys. I will admit, it's a psychological habit over all else. It's very reassuring to know that there's a piece of steel that actually extends into the handle when I'm using my knives. I haven't studied wire or spring tangs at all,

For those who asked, my definition of a full tang is one that has a general profile similar to that of the knife that extends at least 3/4ths of the way into the handle. Width is a bit tricky; for ultimate security, I'd prefer the width of a tang to be at least half of the blade of the blade. I would imagine my definition being wrong in the traditional sense of the word "full tang". Injection molded is all right as long as it maintains a good amount of tang width and length.
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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:46 PM ( #20 )
If warty doesn't mind, I'll post some of his pics of a CS machete with the handle removed:





and a comparison with the Gerber Gator:




IMO that is a good balance for tang size
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thedragon.blue

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Re:What knives DON'T have a full tang? - Monday, August 31, 2009 7:28 AM ( #21 )
looks pretty "full" to me.  i would be interested to see more knives 'opened' up like this just out of curiosity. 
            

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