How do you define "Survival"

When you think about survival, what scenario do you envision?

A. I get lost in the woods for a while, have to stay alive until I get rescued.
B. Some kind of cataclysm happens, I'm trying to survive while the human race dies off.

For me, it's A.  I like reading about bushcraft and primitive ways.  I don't have the resources or the desire to plan for B.  Does preparing for A also prepare you for B?  A family member thinks something is happening in 2012, and is preparing for it.  That takes guns, food supplies, storage space, etc.  Since I live in an urban center, I'm pretty much screwed anyway.  All the supplies I squirrel away can be taken from me with a single bullet.  Given the number of competitors in the city, I don't like my odds.  However, if I can survive for a few days in the woods based on knowledge and basic equipment, maybe that can translate into a long term situation.  Perhaps you have to leave all the supplies you've hoarded, and only take what you can carry.  I think to survive a cataclysm, you have to be lucky, like someone who survived the beaches of Normandy.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" Barong Machete, Special Forces Shovel

Survival, for me anyways, would be being in a situation where I am limited in resources and capabilities and having to work through, innovate and survive long enough to return to, even if it means being rescued, back to regular, everyday life.

Its a little vague, but I think having good 'survival skills' will mean being able to act effectively in any situation under that blanket statement.

That being said, I have ZERO formal training or experience in 'survival', like out in the woods for example, or in nature in general.

Always was a city kid, and never had much chance to be left to my own devices in the great outdoors. Its definitely a valuable skill to have, so I do my best to learn what I can from reading and books. Hopefully I can employ at least 1/10 of what I learn If I ever needed to.

Given the two choices of A or B, I choose A.

For me, wilderness survival skills are not academic. I have spent enough time in the boonies to have used them numerous times to keep myself and my loved ones on this side of the grass. The experience I've gained to stay warm and dry and well fed has paid off.

In a "B" type of survival situation, I am certain that I would fare less well. It isn't that my wife and I haven't prepared sufficiently, it's more that we have made the personal decision to share what we have with others in need. We don't believe in survival at any cost, especially at the expense of others. If our lives are cut short because we shared our food, water, and medical supplies with our neighbors in need, we are spiritually and emotionally prepared to pay that cost. At least we think we are. God only knows what we might really do when the chips are down and someone comes to beg our last tin of corned beef or last gallon of potable water. We can only hope that we will live up to our high ideals. But that is our goal. While I can certainly understand the mindset of the individual who will fight to keep what is his to the bitter end, it is my hope that I will not succumb to that mindset, but make my last earthly action one of compassion and mercy rather than pure and hardcore "survival".

If the world is finally filled only with those who survived by killing their neighbors over food and supplies, is that really a world worth living in any longer?

I'd go with definition A, for the most part, hearing the disturbing number of rabid zenophobes who seem determined that the unwashed masses from "över thar" have targeted their castle and have therefore stocked up for WW III, IV & V always concern me, I hear Bangos and my cheeks clench ;^) Makes be feel more secure to be across the ocean from those types.

Skillsets to handle a situation you find yourself in seem prudent and interesting to me, and there's always the possibility that you'll break down or be stuck somewhere in the wilderness and need to get by until you're rescued or get out, at the risk of sounding judgemental, the other crowd never seem quite right in the head to me, anyone who can legitimise to themselves, if not anyone else, that stocking up with automatic weapons and enough ammo to shoot everyone they see for the next 10-20 years is paranoid, and a danger to society and all their neighbours.

Case in point, what I have on order from Cs (and hope to get ONE day) is one of the triple packs of Bushman seconds and a SF shovel, handy, versatile things that can be used in "regular" camping trips, and can extend to other things if the situation gets worse (I don't like killing anything, but hunting for food if required is something that I'm prepared to do, and the Bushmans would be handy for that).

Some of the stories/cases on a survival site I've looked at are interesting, and point out that survival incidents are common, real world things, you don't need any zombie hordes to qualify for a survival incident. http://equipped.org/srvstoriestoc.htm Other good sites on teh subject are these http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Survival.htm and http://www.the-ultralig...ness-survival-guide.html

Another viewpoint that always seemed sound to me was that which was described in Robert A Heinland's Tunnel in the Sky, Heinland was writing in the duck and cover days and people were panicing like they are now, the basic story line was that the kids (in the future) were doing survival training, but the advice that the boy was being given by his teacher and sister was valid on how to survive in dangerous situations, such as the Zombie Horde Defenders are always talking about.

NB: You may want to suggest to your relative that he/she read up more on the 2012 story, IF it's accurate, it's more of an apocalyptic scenario, stocking up to defend the castle doesn't make sense if you get wiped off the face of the earth, along with everyone else.

NB: Yeah, I know that the views expressed here will make ME a headcase in many people's eyes, but I can live with that.

FWIW

Neale

I would have to say scenario A.
When I think of a situation where I am in an area I am unfamiliar with, lost and awaiting rescue. To me thats a survival situation. 

I don't really ever think of any end game scenario in those terms, for me anyway. I rely on regular medication without which I am no good anyway. Also being an urban animal would mean I had to beat about 4 million others to what ever was left in the way of resources. Survival of the fittest leaves me out, doesn't apply, so I don't worry about it.

Also all this 2012 type stuff has come and gone thousands of times , remember Y2k? I am always interested if these people will give away all their worldly possessions if it truly believe it is going to be the end of days? I would hazard a guess that they probably won't.

sometimes things just are not what they seem.

Grandpappy, your post resonates with me.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" Barong Machete, Special Forces Shovel

Zombies there coming and I will be ready. But really A is more important to have. When I lived in the mountains were a snow storm could strand my family for weeks at a time you really enjoy having survival skills.

HotSoup


That being said, I have ZERO formal training or experience in 'survival', like out in the woods for example, or in nature in general.

Always was a city kid, and never had much chance to be left to my own devices in the great outdoors. Its definitely a valuable skill to have, so I do my best to learn what I can from reading and books. Hopefully I can employ at least 1/10 of what I learn If I ever needed to.

Don't sell yourself short.  "Survival" doesn't necessarily mean being out in the wilderness, in either scenario.  I am also a "city kid" (ignoring my actual age there) with essentially no formal training, and am one of a group that would band together in that situation for exactly those reasons.  There would be about 12 of us, each of us with different skills.
 
By the way - Biggs, your post has a number of syntax errors.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

A is the more likely scenario although I would say stranded more than lost. Living where I do, I also have supplies for a few weeks on hand, not so much for the end of the world but for the Earthquake, where resources may or may not be available. While I don't have a problem sharing my supplies with someone who needs it, that is completely different situation from someone trying to forcibly take it.

"Breathe in breathe out move on"

In option 'A' I would say survival is simply making it home alive.
In option 'B' I agree with exactly what Grandpappy said.  If it gets that bad, I really would rather not be here any longer.  I want to live, not just survive to live in a world gone mad.
God can take me home whenever He wants.  I don't want to go anytime soon, but I am ready whenever the trumpet sounds.

Spent a lot of time in the wilderness for recreation and growing up in the backwoods and working and living there.  Wish I still did, its the only place I feel at home.  I don't worry much about getting by there.  Cities creep me out and make me paranoid.  So rather than "lost in the wilderness', I would say my fear would be "stranded in a big city'. 
As for some large disaster---I too am a "Tunnel in the Sky" fan--In fact I recommended it VERY early in the forums.  I do not believe in relying on THINGS.  Your house can be robbed or burned or you just forced to bug out.  You can lose your bug out bag or have it stolen.  Your weapon may be taken by government troops as was done with Katrina refugees.  All you can really count on is God and whats in your head.
That being said--Friends Neighbors and a few supplies are sure nice to have.

For those who have not read Tunnel in the Sky---he goes into the wilderness with a full kit of top high tech gear.---and gets rolled and robbed of all but his stash knife.  and is the better for it.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

scenario A is the one i have always envisioned. i enjoy reading about primitive skills of surviving and thriving in the wilderness. Whenever i venture into the wilds, i always try to leave one thing behind on prupose, just so i can improvise. e.g., leave home matches or a lighter and try to stay warm without fire or make fire by other means. stay dry without a tent. things of that nature.

scenario B. well, like most of you are saying, i think itll involve some serious luck to survive a global or continental cataclysm. and when its all said and done, i dont know if id want to survive the cataclysm only to enter a world under mob rule. just let the Good Lord bring me home i say

Both scenario's are valid, even though one is more likely to occur than the other.
Wilderness survival to me basically is camping without having at all  prepared for it, in a place that is more likely than not unsuitable for easy living. In other words, if you knew you were going there you would have taken lots of stuff, and prolly had a ball. But now it might kill you, and you don't want that. ;)

The other type is more long term, and requires more material preps, aside from the necessary skills. But when it happens, your survival will depend more on the soundness of your plans and preparation and gear than on skills alone, regardless of how important they still are. It takes a LOT of planning, resources and commitment to fully prepare to survive a societal collapse, even 'just' for a year, let alone for decades. In that respect, surviving a plane crash and getting back to civilization may well be peanuts.

I would say that for most of my life I've defined Survival as Scenario A. I've spent alot of my life outdoors and wouldn't be too worried about a situation like this. Scouting was alot of fun but I also learned alot of different things that would be very useful in this situation. Not only that but I've been through 2 different Wilderness Survival classes (1 was through Boy Scouts) that have given me alot of knowledge. Theres been some traing through the Army that I've had as well that has been very enlightening. I feel confident that I would have a good chance of survival at least for a decent amount of time in a remote location with very few or no supplies.

Scenario B is a whole nother story. The past couple years have me thinking about end of the world type scenario. One of the biggest things is that when I'm outdoors in the woods I'm usually by myself and have only myself and/or my dogs to worry about. In this situation though I'd have my wife and daughter to worry about as well. While preparing for Scenario A would just require learning and practicing survival skills preparing for Scenario B would also take a good amount of money to get supplies needed for a good amount of time.
 
I could deal with Scenario A and that's what I imagine survival as. Scenario B is something that I could see happening and I try to prepare for as best as I can but if it were to happen I imagine I would be screwed and just have to deal with it.

princeofblades

HotSoup


That being said, I have ZERO formal training or experience in 'survival', like out in the woods for example, or in nature in general.

Always was a city kid, and never had much chance to be left to my own devices in the great outdoors. Its definitely a valuable skill to have, so I do my best to learn what I can from reading and books. Hopefully I can employ at least 1/10 of what I learn If I ever needed to.

Don't sell yourself short.  "Survival" doesn't necessarily mean being out in the wilderness, in either scenario.  I am also a "city kid" (ignoring my actual age there) with essentially no formal training, and am one of a group that would band together in that situation for exactly those reasons.  There would be about 12 of us, each of us with different skills.
 
By the way - Biggs, your post has a number of syntax errors.

 I know I sound stupid asking this but what is a syntax error? I would recommend getting some wilderness survival training even if its just a 1 day class books are good but nothing beats hands on training. Every human being should know at least some basic survival skills you never know when you might need it.

Vegemite


When you think about survival, what scenario do you envision?

A. I get lost in the woods for a while, have to stay alive until I get rescued.
B. Some kind of cataclysm happens, I'm trying to survive while the human race dies off.

Well, for me it leans towards A. For instance the snow storm this last week in Show Low Arizona. Lots of people on one of the two power company grids were, and some still are, without power. The day time high has hit 45 or so and the low this week at night has been in the teens. Some of these people are in a survival situation as I type this. This is not to mention the fact that getting anything shipped up here for a day or so was at a dead stop as the highways were too risky to traverse.
 
Like RD, I have some supplies stocked for my local natural events, mine being Snow and the possibility of no stuff to buy at the grocery store, power outages, for up to 2 weeks etc.
 
The thought of a "B" scenario was overwhelming for the first couple of years I though about it. Some things like the world apocalypse are unrealistic to prepare for, other things might be doable.

To many hobbies, not enough time.

I would like to put a third scenario in and just completely bugger things up for everyone lol.

My idea of survivalism/preparation goes towards safeguarding myself against a slow/fast collapse (if it even happens, to which I am doubtful) of a nation.

When people imagine the collapse of a nation they think hollywood... but in reality you just have to look at Argentina, and the remarkable/horrifying  scenarios they have gone through in regards to a complete ecconomic collapse. Noone even saw it comming for their nation, or that the world could let it happen... but it did, and it was / is rather shocking for people still there in many parts of society. It makes remarkable reading if you have time to research about the goings on.

Its so bad over there atm, at night they put the traffic lights to orange permanently, so people do not have to stop their cars at lights and risk a jacking. This has been the case for a few years now.

Thats what I like to think my 'survivalism' protects me from should something huge like that happen for whatever reason (be it the aftermath of a cataclysm from another part of the world, or in my own country).

I like to keep alot of long term storage food... hey, I eat it anyway, and I still go shopping like a normal person, I just cycle my food. If anything else this also protects me against short term price hikes on certain 'high interest' foods due to crop failures etc in the short term... I can just buy it again when it reaches normal prices. My pocket = safe from problems like that.

I also like to have things around myself to give a sensible level of protection, not take over the nation however. Weapons become integral in protecting simple things like food plants you might have in desperate / high priced times. This is also why my house is like a spanish fort lol.  I also like to have enough tools / equipment that even if I broke something like a knife regularly, or lost them or w/e I would never be without.

I also have a generator for full operation of my house. The preparedness point of view is actually the smaller reason for me having it. I have it to power my brooders and incubators. I breed exotic parrots, and each year I have very expensive birds being raised as babies inside my home in temperature controlled environments. Should the power go off while I am raising them... they die from exposure.

I also have around 15,000lts of water around the house in water tanks from water collection... mostly for gardens (due to massively increasing water prices and water restrictions here... but hey... will count for alot if the water gets cut / contaminated for whatever reason).

So technically I can be self sufficient, without growing anything of my own... for around 6-8 months. Though I would have to think of something like storing diesel in order to successfully carry this off with power more than just 2-3 or so hours a day.

I dont consider myself paranoid, or really worried about the goings on in the world... it gives me a headache most the time. However I have traveled a fair bit, and seen the goings on of several darker nations around the world with work... and have come to the conclusion that life for those who have things is always far better off for them than those without.

Obviously A is the reality of survival.  The people with "mad max", "Red Dawn" fantasies are just fantasizing.  I'm with many of you, the 2012 scare has come and gone.  I do have students who are indeed trying to sell all their worldly goods to prepare for it.  My hope is that like Y2K after it passes all the people who stockpiled will be willing to sell their stuff cheap.
     I do think it's wise to have several days supplies just in case.  Loss of power, snow storms, earthquakes, fires, etc. can all leave you with little or no access to general supplies.  I keep a BOB by my bed, one in the trunk of my car and one in my wife's car.  Everyone thought I was weird until one of the major highways around here had a traffic back up in which people were stuck for about 3 days.  I may be paranoid but guess who would have been warm, had drinking water, food etc?

     I am a wilderness "survival" guide with my wife during the summer.  We are not teaching end of the world survival but honestly more like camping skills.  Since I work for someone else I can't teach the skills as intensively as I would like but... We teach land navigation, canoeing, swimming, shelter building, fire making, improvised fishing / trapping, etc.  Notice none of this is fighting zombies.  I love zombie movies and my imagination soars at the ideas but not exactly likely.

     I'm not nearly as prepared or "stockpiled as I would like to be but money limits us.  I would say gain the skills you can, prepare as much as you can, pray and hope your lucky then go to a movie and enjoy life!

Being prepared for wilderness survival is vital for sportsmen or people who make a living is the great outdoors, but realizing that most of the worlds populations are located in cities, it would be a mistake to be unskilled in urban survival-remember Katrina?

Vegemite


When you think about survival, what scenario do you envision?

A. I get lost in the woods for a while, have to stay alive until I get rescued.
B. Some kind of cataclysm happens, I'm trying to survive while the human race dies off.

For me, it's A.  I like reading about bushcraft and primitive ways.  I don't have the resources or the desire to plan for B.  Does preparing for A also prepare you for B?  A family member thinks something is happening in 2012, and is preparing for it.  That takes guns, food supplies, storage space, etc.  Since I live in an urban center, I'm pretty much screwed anyway.  All the supplies I squirrel away can be taken from me with a single bullet.  Given the number of competitors in the city, I don't like my odds.  However, if I can survive for a few days in the woods based on knowledge and basic equipment, maybe that can translate into a long term situation.  Perhaps you have to leave all the supplies you've hoarded, and only take what you can carry.  I think to survive a cataclysm, you have to be lucky, like someone who survived the beaches of Normandy.

 
I don't think that the world will collapse in to some hollywood mad max scenario.  But I do think that a senario of prolonged economic decline, pandemic, local or regional disaster in my lifetime is not only possible, but quite likely.
 
I view the mad max senario as nothing more then hollywood fantasy, and the level of disruption required to create that sort of society would likely leave me dead regardless of any preparation I could possibly have made.
 
I look at it like a car seat belt-   On any given day, I'm not likely to be in a car accident, but the possibility is always there.  Also, while no seat belt could possibly save me if my car was hit by a train going full speed, it is still highly likely to help reduce the severity of lesser accidents.  Just because I am unlikely to need it on any given day, and the fact that it help me in the most extreme of circumstances is not a valid reason for not putting it on in the first place.
 
Or for another example, a CCW handgun or SD blade.  Many people poo-poo the idea as it won't help you much take on an armed gang of super ninjas who ambush you in your sleep.  It will, however, allow you to defend yourself in most self defence situations you are likely to come across.
 
Seriously preparing for disaster will most likely not save you from an asteroid smacking into the earth, but it is very likely to make surviving a natural disaster much less of a trial and the peace of mind knowing that should the delivery truck not make it in to your local grocery store on schedual for what ever reason, you and yours are still going to be able to eat tonight, tomorrow, and next week if need be.

"There is nothing in the universe cold steel won`t cut."

    -Conan of Cimmeria in "Beyond the Black River" by R.E. Howard

 Well this was a question with limited options , but a good one.  And this really should be a poll, with a lot more options.  But this is always been a question to me (something I always think about). What if the "what if" happened?? I think it to be a plus for people to think about the "what if" situation. Most people do not. They think that they will be able to run to the nearest "kwiki mart" for all of their needs.  But what happens when that "dependable " food and water supply is not there?

To me survival rests on one thing..............me.

 So being able to survive in the woods is what survival is about.  To live INDEPENDENT (not being dependent of anyone else to provide for you), or being lost in the woods, or moving into the woods if things do get bad. 
I look at it this way, if I am lost in the woods, I will survive "until I get out", not "until I get rescued" (and I know there could be situations where I wouldn't have much choice).

So I think the advantage is being able to live out in the wilderness period.

  Yeah I can survive here in the urban area for a couple of months if something happens , but after that I will head to the wilderness for my survival, as it will be providing for myself.  And I will let the looters take the house when there is nothing left to defend.   The measure of someones survival is what they make of it, and what they think they need to survive.   To me I would rather rely on the wilderness, than a city (or country) in chaos, for survival.

 **Spawning a new Sig line**

 

 
   We try to be ready for anything that may happen, but the only thing we know for sure that we will have with us at any given moment, is our knowledge. 

Sling, one ugly thought is of the masses headed into the wilderness for survival, all looking to forage for food and game once the kwikie marts are depleted.  To avoid them, you'd have to go high in the mountains or far up north, I think.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" Barong Machete, Special Forces Shovel

  I would still rather deal with the "masses headed into the wilderness".

  There are lot of people that think that heading into the wilderness is what they will do, but in fact I really wonder how far many would get??

 
   We try to be ready for anything that may happen, but the only thing we know for sure that we will have with us at any given moment, is our knowledge. 

There is one fundamental flaw with going into the wild should a world appocalypse happen, and many forget this. Your survival experience is limited by what you can carry. A fair chunk of survivalist type people will not live through the experience of going bush, making a cabin, and surviving more than a few months let alone years... unless by miraculous feat you never catch a sever cold, never cut yourself badly, or get a basic infection. Also... how good are people really at, at making sure their crops succeed, how much of a green thumb do people really have, without fertiliser, without pesticides etc. all food for thought.

I see so many people dream about the idea of going bush and being 100% self reliant... but getting to that reliant phase is nearly impossible without 1) finding a place already done so to take over or 2) planning a remote location ahead of time. especially if all your taking is what you can carry.

Also, going bush does NOT mean safe from looters or other people... infact you suddenly find yourself in a far less defensible position.

People forget that with good management, you can grow everything you need in a moderate backyard for a small family. Utilising window spaces etc and any patch of soil... water collection is also a piece of cake in suburban areas.

I would much rather pit myself against looters in a defensible warm, thick walled, fully roofed and lockable home than start everything from scratch setting myself back a few hundred years in the process, where the defence you have against someone who wants what you have is however well you built that shack of yours.

SurvivalBlog.com

About the masses that would head for the wilds, at what point would it make more sense to stay in the cities and simply watch them go?  I mean, how many would have to leave an urban area before that urban area became the wilderness?

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

I knew a Korean War Sniper who tried to recruit me for a survivalist group.  He had a large stockpile of Semi-autos and ton of ammo buried for his group.  But he frankly told me he regarded the guys with all the autos as cannon fodder and survival compounds as supply depots.  Said if it came to that he would "Climb a tree and poop in a bag for a week and when he came down he would have all their stuff,"  "done it before"
Just something to think about.
 
Interesting point about when the cities become wilderness.  I figure there would be a large die off within a year.  And most people rendered ineffective through starvation within a month.   After that survival would get easier in either place due to less competition.   However one problem is that if all the skilled hunters start living off game and ignoring game laws, Big game would be wiped out in short order.
Prairie Dogs are yummy.  Watch out for bubonic though.  Its endemic with them.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

I have always thought that urban survival can be just as if not more difficult than wilderness survival. Just think if you were taken away from your home, your BOB's and such, your money. The urban environment suddenly doesn't look so good even without any kind of disaster to make life harder.

I think some of the people with outstanding urban survival skills are the homeless we see on the streets every day. They sleep outdoors in temperatures that can and do kill, their food is scarce ,many are ill and they survive predation from the worse kind of animal, fellow humans. Most of society has forgotten about them and yet they survive.

We don't need to look into ancient history to see how quickly a society can degenerate, just look what happens in any "modern" society when a nutural or un natural disaster strikes. In a matter of hours "civilised" people are looting, raping and killing each other.

sometimes things just are not what they seem.

dlyn454
 
"Climb a tree and poop in a bag for a week...

Thanks Dlyn.  I was wondering what I could do for my upcoming 7 day vacation.
I'm always willing to try something new, and this certainly fits the bill!

Exactly ausdigr.  The US has had how many such situations just in my recent memory ?  And each one of the big ones has resulted in riots and looting.  I wonder if it has been more so because we as a nation are so tech dependent.  In the past there was the Great Missouri Earthquake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Earthquake
But at the time all it meant was some Indians and Pioneers had to rebuild their cabins.  Which they had built themselves in the first place and never knew what electricity was.  "Running water" meant a fast moving stream.  Food came from the garden and their rifle.  
Today the same thing would mean millions hungry thirsty sick rioting and looting and freezing if it was winter.

As you say the homeless are an excellent example to study.  And keep in mind many of them are mentally ill or addicted--yet they survive.
 
Espada Hope you enjoy :)----Really though.  People think of snipers as great marksmen.  but another important trait is the patience of a cat.  

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796