How do you define "Survival"

neale

I and  presume others, were thinking of getting basic services up in a homestead type of environment, out of sight and hearing of any centres or thoroughfares where dodgy people are likely to be round, IE on the back of hills from the road, low enough that lights wouldn't be visible and sound would be contained by the hills. 

I don't think this is really possible, unless you are deep in the bush of Alaska or Northern Canada, where there are no other people for miles and miles.  If you have a fire, a permanent structure, use firearms to hunt, it's only a matter of time before someone finds you.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" and 12" Barong Machetes, Special Forces Shovel 

Veg, As I said, I was talking about being in the hills in farmland or national parks, here in Oz there are plenty of places where no-one else will be within miles of you, many places in the US and elsewhere, too, I'd imagine.

As a few examples, one of my friend's farms would be an option if it had decent water, access road is a washed out dirt track weaving up into the hills, only people we ever saw up there were 4WDers who were off on a trek into the wilderness on the worst tracks they could find ( they were quite put out to get to the end of this ehinous track that they thought tested their 4WDs and saw my V8 Coupe performance car there though, with a bit of care and  LSD you can get through quite a bit with a normal car ;^)

Another time I went shooting with a friend in the country about 20-30 years ago (in another V8 coupe, as a matter of fact), we checked with the cops in the nearest town (Gravesend), and we were told if we headed out along one valley, all the farms were deserted, so we just headed out the dead end valley for about 50 KM, camped in a lovely old homestead and trekked up into the hills to shoot.

Got a friend, sorta, in Alaska who came from Cali, lived up in the hills studying plantlife (he was a biologist), they left cali after they lost everything in the big fires of '77(?), couple of years ago he went back for a bit as his wife was lecturing at the universities, and on a whim went back up to the old house for the first time in 30 years, he said it looked like no-one had been there since the house burnt down.

So there are places all over where you can get away from people enough to live quietly if you really want to, yes, some people may know you're there, but the ones you need to look out for are likely to be chasing easy targets and with a bit of care you should be able to stay out of their way.

FWIW

Interesting that you mention California.  From lots of hearsay, remote parts of Northern California are run by Marijuana growers.  They impose their own "law and order."  Australia might be full of wide open spaces, but it's my opinion that is not true for most Americans.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" and 12" Barong Machetes, Special Forces Shovel 

Thinking of not so long ago there were "Woods bums" about.  And 'Swamp Rats"--Guys who lived pretty much as described only with a .22 instead of a muzzle loader.   Trading a few pelts or a few hours of chopping wood for enough money to buy the few essentuals.   Some of these men lived in violation of laws, but simply were not worth the laws time going back and finding and prosecuting them so long as they were not bothering anyone.  A cop could stop 10 speeders --and do more good for society--in the time it would take just to get to their cabin---and then maybe not find the guy.
It seems the same principle might apply with looters and all.   We can loot suburbia and terrorize some rabbit people.---Or we can spend all day trudging back into the bush and Maybe find an old coot and steal his dried beans --if he is home and doesn't ambush us on the road.
Or a tyrannical government.  Can invest its resources keeping the town under control---or seeking out some old fool in the back country.
Given that the United States Government with the support of most of the population cannot seem to deal with a few pot growers and psychos in the back country now----I don't see them doing any better after things fall apart.

At some point it is just a matter not of fighting the Powers That Be, but  of making it not worth the trouble of messing with you..

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

Speaking of survival, this thread is doing a fine job of it.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Dead is the person whose existence is defined solely by limitations;  give no sympathy, as he is the engineer of his own demise. 
 
Cold Steel:  Sharp enough to cut wind!  

Don't worry what people think; they usually don't.

I've traveled a descent bit but always missed the rocky mountains somehow.  The east coast of US would be very hard not to be noticed unless the population was very much reduced.  Certainly where I lived in Alaska it would be possible but a hard life.  I think the level of population would make a great difference here.  Possibly most plausible would be the small towns in New England.  I love the New England mentality and they stick together through thick and thin (for the most part).  If you could be part of a town setting there they would bunker down and defend each other.  This may be the best bet for rebuilding civilization.

Another thing that comes to mind and I have to ask on the new thread, how many people are we surviving with?  Is it ourselves, our families, close friends, etc?  Each of these would seem to require different tactics.

for me I think it would be only my innermost circle of "family" (not all blood)  I am friendly but maintain a distance.  I would have a hard time turning people away and would co-operate with others--but would be that very clanish type you describe.  Even if existing alongside others--my small clique would come first.  And be the only ones I fully trusted.  
Not trusting does not mean I am hostile--I just don't expect much from most people.  On a desert island when they start all the 'share everything' stuff--I would be "OK, we are gonna go live on the other side, and we will come trade with you when we have more than we need of something."

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

fox


Certainly where I lived in Alaska it would be possible but a hard life.  I think the level of population would make a great difference here.  

I would think the levels of population would be in a constant state of flux as people banded together into small or even large tribes and moved around like Nomadic Warriors.  An area that was once sparsely populated could become heavily populated and vice versa.  The American Indians would always be on the move as they went where the food (buffalo) was and as they tried to get away from those that would put them on reservations.  Right now I live in an area with a low population and I hope it stays that way.

 
               

Good point.  Urban disasters (plague, power outages, war) could send masses fleeing hte cities.  Overwhelm small communities and in turn leave former cities abandoned.  It has happened in both the Old World and the New World that cities are abandoned became wilderness and were lost. 

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

bbbb - "I would think the levels of population would be in a constant state of flux as people banded together into small or even large tribes and moved around like Nomadic Warriors.  An area that was once sparsely populated could become heavily populated and vice versa."

I expect that that would happen to a degree, but I'd put money on the fact that the majority of city folk would NOT convert to a hunter/gatherer existence (even presuming that most could acquire the skills to live that way, anyone who thinks that they can just walk from a life of office work to being Ug, the hunter, is seriously undervaluing our distant ancestors, and shouldn't expect a long life) many would stay in the old population centres, the majority (sadly) probably living on a looting/taking basis, some would sit there waiting for help and die off relatively quickly, some would learn to grow food and survive in the remains of what they knew. Of the ones who left the cities, unfortunately that I expect most would become roaming bands of brigands, descending on small communities, taking what they want and moving on ( no, I'm afraid that I have little hope that the majority of mankind would be decent in times of crisis, we've been told that you have to take what you want for so long, many people are disturbingly prepared to shrug and say "yeah, that's right") So times of trouble normally show most people being amoral, and a small minority trying to do the right thing, best I can hope for is to do the right thing, and slip away to somewhere quiet so I can survive while doing it.

FWIW

either way, it would turn into a 'kill or be killed' mindset for most people imo.

youre not going to want raiders taking what you work hard to grow/hunt to feed themselves while you have your own family/friends to feed. so what do you do when they come to steal? do let them take it and hope you somehow make it through? or do you take a stand and say 'no!' knowing there was a chance you could die in a skirmish that followed?

Here's an article on today's "Survivalists";

http://www.newsweek.com/id/228428?GT1=43002

 
               

I enjoyed the article.  Thanks bbbb

Katana, nice sword!

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" and 12" Barong Machetes, Special Forces Shovel 

I think most of the pure bred city folk would stay in the city no matter what.  As I said we have the example of WW 2 where people stayed in the bombed out ruins rather than flee to the hills and live in a leanto.    There is a fear bordering on phobia about the wilderness among those unfamiliar with it.  Add to that the fear they have of the kind of people who do live there. (they see a hunting rifle and imagine Deliverance)  I think the small towns would be over-run by city folk, but not the back country.
BUT---there are plenty of hunters and outdoorsmen and wannabe commando survivalists that would prey upon each other.  Compete for choice spots and take each others stuff. 
Choose between mobs of looters in the city, or a return of the Indian Wars in the country. 

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

I often debate between settling down somewhere quiet with a close nit group or being nomadic myself.

settling down gives a better life and more comfort.  It also gives a better sense of community.  On the flip side it makes you more vulnerable and at higher risk.

Being nomadic gives you more security of being stumbled on or attacked (as you don't have as much of value).  It also gives you the advantage of leaving when populations shift and it gets crowded.

Much of this may depend again on who is with me and where I am.

I think in any world altering dissaster (which is where this has gone) so many people are going to die that both city and country are going to be reshaped.  I would predict (but have no evidence) that populations would spread out more evenly.  Country towns being more populated, cities being less populated and wilderness areas, well who knows.  

Just a thought--being undecided might be the wisest choice.  Because it may not be up to you.  There were people doing fine in Katrina forced to evacuate.  You may be fine in your fortified well stocked home, until the firestorm starts from someone who didn't know how to use a candle.   Or a bunch of people trying to camp out in the forest start a forest fire that leaves your planned site a desert of ash.
On the other hand something as simple as a twisted ankle can require you to hole up someplace.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

I would go for the bunker-on-a-hill with a very high fence, vegetable garden, solar panels and artesian well.

Oh, a biodiesel 4x4 runabout, wouldnt hurt. (would run it off a animal fat source) Last but not least, a crap-load of guns and related ammunition.

I would scavenge or trade for stuff, whenever possible. I think that if you trade with people that came along, even if for stuff that you dont need at the time (but later would) will generate enough good will that they will leave you be. Rather trade the dude his pack of AAA batteries for a package of aspirins, rather that to turn him away at gunpoint and have him trying to assault my compound out of spite and necessity.

You can choose to be a lion or a zebra in life. But, come morning, whether you're a lion or a zebra, you have to run like a motherf***** to survive.

Farnham's Freehold.

Traders have often survived and prospered regardless of warring factions around them.  Native Traders spanned the continant before the whiteman.  Later Indians dealt with white traders even while at war with whites.  The Gypsies in Europe....   People don't have to love you to trade with you.   And to leave you be and even help you--so they can trade with you in the future.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

alway make friends with three groups: kitchen staff (you'll eat better), Secretaries (they actually rule everything) & supply crew (you'll get better stuff).  In our scenario the only ones that may be left are the supply (traders).  Better to be one of them or friends with them then against them.

If you choose to hold up somewhere a back up plan would be wise.  Remember a siege mentality is a death mentality.  If you go nomad have a place to return to and hold up for a while in case of injury or other need.

fox -  "alway make friends with three groups: .... In our scenario the only ones that may be left are the supply (traders). Better to be one of them or friends with them then against them."

In a stable/safe environment that's quite a valid point, but IMHO trying to be a trader without sufficient, capable, protection you that you can depend on, would be tantamount to hanging a target on your chest (at least you could just "borrow" the signs from the current stores I s'pose). There will be a place for traders in any future society, but it'll probably be a while before it's safe to let others know what you have stashed away, or that you DO have anything. Harking back to the stupid movies, Bartertown in Mad Max III is unfortunately likely to be a probable scenario, a strong community with plenty of weapons to control the situation are likely to set up the first trading points, much like the trading posts guarded by forts in America's wild days.

"If you choose to hold up somewhere a back up plan would be wise. Remember a siege mentality is a death mentality. If you go nomad have a place to return to and hold up for a while in case of injury or other need."

True, rigid plans would most likely be a serious longevity handicap, by the same token people should be prepared to give up what they have and start again (or set up multiple caches as Dlyn mentioned in the other thread), dieing with the most toys never seemed to work for anyone, and it's not a theory that I, personally would want to test.

Just posted on the other thread and that got my mind into this again.   If you choose to travel--or have to travel, learn from the old timers and the animals.  the Indians built their fire below ground level when in enemy territory.  (You dig a hole for the fire--keep it tiny--and make a trench leading to it from the side to bring in oxygen ---in some versions they would actually make a little tunnel)  Build it under a tree to diffuse the smoke.   Not proper modern park fire building--but 'keep me from gettin kilt' firebuilding.
You also never sleep next to your fire.--so raiders coming to the fire will not find you asleep there.
From the animals.   A mule deer prefers to rest where he can see in one direction and smell in the other.  On the downwind side of a hill.  OR (for you -- since you can't smell worth mentioning)  where he cannot be approached from behind---as with a cliff face behind him.    OR with noisy brush behind him.   If he sees something coming he will slip into the brush himself---if he hears something coming through the brush behind him, he will bolt before it breaks through. 
Lacking anything else deer will go into the middle of the brush and if they hear anything they will slip out the other side.
A bonus is that such sites are a bit protected from the weather even though they might not be your ideal peacetime camp sites.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

neale


  So times of trouble normally show most people being amoral, and a small minority trying to do the right thing, best I can hope for is to do the right thing, and slip away to somewhere quiet so I can survive while doing it.

FWIW

One book that is tangentally relevant to the topic at hand is Primo Levi's book 'Survival in Auschwitz' (titled 'If this is a Man' outside the U.S.)  It recounts the year the author spent in the death camp.

One line that always stuck with me is (and I'm heavily heavily paraphrasing here due to poor memory) was that 'the brave, the strong, the honest, the charitable were the first to die.  The weak, the craven, the coward, the thief was the one that survived.'

Similarly in Japanese POW camps during WW2, the soldiers most likely to survive were the ones willing to eat anything even marginally palatable, take advantage of the American minority, etc.

While I think that the situation in the country side will be less extreme- either you fend for yourself or you don't, and small towns probably will be able to work together to survive.... Cities will rapidly collapse in on themselves as people seek to control very limited resources.   I think people in this situation who are unprepared will rapidly find themselves facing the choice Primo Levi did- either keep their humanity and die, or lose it all to have a chance at survival.

"There is nothing in the universe cold steel won`t cut."

    -Conan of Cimmeria in "Beyond the Black River" by R.E. Howard


The conservative's prayer- "DEAR LORD, THIS YEAR YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTOR, PATRICK SWAYZIE. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTRESS, FARAH FAWCETT. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE SINGER, MICHAEL JACKSON. I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW, MY FAVORITE PRESIDENT IS BARACK OBAMA. AMEN"

This has been a most interesting thread. Much like Dlyn, I grew up in the forest, trained in the forest and truth be known, the only time I am truly comfortable is when I am in the forest. The woods provide you food, shelter, water and medicine. A strange truth is that for any affliction you pick up in the woods, the cure is usually within 30 feet. Kill a beaver (with respect) and you have both food and lamp oil. Oh yes, if you have respect for the woods and it's creatures, you will be provided for, if you don't, you will find it a harsh mistress indeed.

Should a major disaster befall us, I would most certainly head as deep into the woods as necessary. I would have no fear of roving bands of urban survivors, as they would not survive in the woods. I would have no fear of fellow 'woodsmen' as they would have their own resources or would have perished. On the contrary, I would welcome them to camp and offer what hospitality that I could. Prairie folk and woods folk have an 'earthyness' to them that gives an understanding of the need for co-operation.

As far as a need for lethal action, I would rather avoid such situations. When you take a life, you take away everything the person has been and everything they might have been. Such things are not good for the Spirit and are best avoided. I don't believe that civilization will vanish in a maelstrom of anarchy, rather I believe that it will go out with a whimper, allowing sufficient time for those with foresight to find a better path. Whether we realize it or not, our camaraderie and sharing of information, ideas and ideals in the CS forums, are an important step on the path.

Good point.   We say 'An armed society is a polite society"  I was asked by a newbie one time about all these expesive vehicles sitting in the mountains and tents full of expensive gear sitting unattended and whether hunters did not worry about thieves.   I told them "You have someone who either likes to sneak up on deer within a few yards unseen, or is equipped with a high power rifle and shoots animals from 100s of yards away.  He is likely watching his camp right now and you just can't see him.   Would you molest it ?"
I think there might be reavers---but as Al said, nature or true outdoorsmen would soon take care of them.
When outdoormen meet in the wilderness it is normally most polite.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

it would be different for city folk like me. i grew up near woodland too (sherwood forest) but now live in a large council estate. i can well imagine some of the rough locals running out of food and then deciding to rob their neighbours. i think in the cities the yobs and gangs would florish, at least until food ran out. it would be the honest citizens dying of starvation. and so it would be the honest people that first turn to the woods and mountains looking for food and saftey from the newly organised street gangs. the gangs would follow only when they had looted every house, supermarket, restaurant.

i dont imagine their would be anyway to survive in the citys unless you were perhaps lucky? enough to have a gang that "taxed" you. made you give them something. and then only until you have nothing to give.

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle won."  Sir Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington.

"The problem with arguing with a Donkey is, it gets you nowhere and irritates the Donkey" Brother Grimm

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.                         T.S. Eliot
This is one of my favorite quotes and I thought you might enjoy it, espescially Al.

I have encountered many people in the woods and some a good ways back.  I've only had a few incididents that I didn't like or people who left a bad taste in my mouth and only one that caused me to move my camp as he made me that nervous.  On the other hand I've been offered food, fish, drinks etc. many times.


I would think the best idea if you are prepared and skilled enough would be to go to the woods but stay within a few days travel to a city so you can return to get supplies (even scrap iron and the like) when you needed / wanted.

As far as becoming a trader I wouldn't recommend that for myself either.  I would recommend being their friends not their enemies.  As sad as it is the Mad Max Bartertown is a distinct possibility.  It may be a good idea to try and set up for any community or group of well armed & equipped group but probably not for a solo person.

One survival tool that most people overlook is the development of a skill that would make you useful/indispensible to an ad hoc community. Cooking, Sewing, First Aid, Carpentry, gardening, canning, communications, metalworking,etc.  Everyone should know a little bit about all of them, but if you have one skill that really stands out, you become a person of value. If you have a planned survival community each member should have a special skill of benefit to the group. Each member with a special skill then becomes a teacher to the group.

Regardless of your skills with weapons, you will eventually have to stop fighting and learn to get along. The skills you bring to the table will establish your value. 

Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [Luke 22:36]

Excellent point.  You know one of the traits that the Jews have had since ancient times is the belief that EVERY man aught to have some useful manual skill or trade.  Best example is Paul.  a high class upper crust lawyer.  Who became a tentmaker when that life came to an end.   Something you can fall back on and offer people a reason to feed ya.  Need not be a Zombie uprising--might just be--Oh I dunno--a crashing economy that gets ya laid off.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown

dlyn454


Excellent point.  You know one of the traits that the Jews have had since ancient times is the belief that EVERY man aught to have some useful manual skill or trade.  Best example is Paul.  a high class upper crust lawyer.  Who became a tentmaker when that life came to an end.   Something you can fall back on and offer people a reason to feed ya.  Need not be a Zombie uprising--might just be--Oh I dunno--a crashing economy that gets ya laid off.

For some the crashing economy probably seems as bad or worse then a Zombie uprising- after all, Zombies can only eat you once, but the tax man and credit card man don't give up that easy.  The end of the world is a matter of perception.

"There is nothing in the universe cold steel won`t cut."

    -Conan of Cimmeria in "Beyond the Black River" by R.E. Howard


The conservative's prayer- "DEAR LORD, THIS YEAR YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTOR, PATRICK SWAYZIE. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTRESS, FARAH FAWCETT. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE SINGER, MICHAEL JACKSON. I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW, MY FAVORITE PRESIDENT IS BARACK OBAMA. AMEN"

Thats right.  THOSE monsters keep you alive just so they can keep feeding off you.
In all seriousness I believe and said in the very early days of the forum, part of the reason people imagine these monsters and horror shows and disaster movies become popular is because they are easier to deal with by direct action than the real life problems they symbolically represent.
 
In the old days there were countless stories of going away to a desert island.  Today with a shortage of desert islands it is civilization that goes away.  The result is the same.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." ~ Author Unknown