How do you define "Survival"

dlyn454


I knew a Korean War Sniper who tried to recruit me for a survivalist group.  He had a large stockpile of Semi-autos and ton of ammo buried for his group.  But he frankly told me he regarded the guys with all the autos as cannon fodder and survival compounds as supply depots.  Said if it came to that he would "Climb a tree and poop in a bag for a week and when he came down he would have all their stuff,"  "done it before"
Just something to think about.
 
Interesting point about when the cities become wilderness.  I figure there would be a large die off within a year.  And most people rendered ineffective through starvation within a month.   After that survival would get easier in either place due to less competition.   However one problem is that if all the skilled hunters start living off game and ignoring game laws, Big game would be wiped out in short order.
Prairie Dogs are yummy.  Watch out for bubonic though.  Its endemic with them.

Not to make a direct comment on the korean vet, but, I do think its a little funny-  Almost every vet with a rifle and a little training, when the topic of survivalism (read mad max senario) comes up, seems to think that they will just be able to take what they need from other survivors ignoring the fact that other survivors are also likely to be people with rifles and training too.
 
From what I read, Pirates on the Spanish Main rarely made it out of their 20's, and they were in organized groups that had safe havens to retreat too.   Just something to think about for those who think they'll be able to play bandit/warlord in a post apocalyptic world.

"There is nothing in the universe cold steel won`t cut."

    -Conan of Cimmeria in "Beyond the Black River" by R.E. Howard

Thanks for kicking this off Vegemite, BTW, it's spawned some interesting discussion/views.

We don't necessarily all agree on the matter, but the ability to handle dissent without conflict is what makes us "civilised", and the subject is obviously interesting to quite a few of us.

On the point of wilderness over urban survival, though, might I point out that many of the urban scenarios described are SUBurban scenarios, as someone who lives within easy walking distance of the CBD of the largest (and best, that'll get the others going ;^) city in Oz, my neighbours and I don't have the room for water tanks or gardens to keep things going for any period of time, I expect that many inner city areas are the same, and for that matter, don't forget that your flushing toilets are useless once water pressure goes, so you'll need pit or other toilet facilities pretty quick. Some of the old "collapse of civilisation" movies from the 50's and 60's, like The Ultimate Warrior, actually covered many aspects of urban survival reasonably well, still didn't cover off No 2 issues though ;^)

I enjoyed that movie.  Haven't seen it in a while.

Point I wanted to make about the sniper is everybody imagines paramilitary actions with gunbattles or Mad Max gangs doing frontal assaults..  But in the old West the danger was not gunfights in the streets but a "claim jumper' in the bushes shooting you in the back as you went about your chores.  Yeah someone might be a Super Trooper with the latest AR.  But your adversary might be a guy who has fun shooting prairie dogs at 300 yds with his bolt action.  Think Quigley Down Under with a modern rifle.  I figure avoidance is the best defense.  It appears that in recent disasters generators have attracted looters.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

Honestly, I don't give this scenario nearly as much thought as I should.  If there was cause for widespread looting and pillaging, I work in one of the ripest targets in the entire city.

Who isn't going to be looking for weapons in a situation like that?

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

The best use of the generator would be as bait to attract all those that would steal it from you.  Sit up in that tree and wait for the ne'er do-wells to attempt thier theiving tactics and snipe em before they knnow what hit em.

Actually, I would gather with a few close and trusted friends and avoid larger groups as much as possible.  The more material things I have, the more attention I'd draw to myself or my group, so I will do my best and go with the minimalist approach. If that doesn't work...well, if things get bad, I'd rather go down fighting the masses that want to kill and pillage to survive instead of surviving and having to deal with them everyday.  After a while, I think that lifestyle would make you look forward to dying as a way to just lay down and rest for eternity.

Possible 4th option, hit the road, Jack.

If things DID develop into the "collapse of civilsation" scenario, and we had a bit of warning (which we would), I'd probably go for an alternate road warrior solution, convert the old kombi to electric, cover the roof with solar panels, take a small generator to top things up quickly and take off. She'll take me places most people are sure only a 4WD can get into, is quite comfortable to live in for extended periods, and will carry a reasonable amount of gear, you'd just need to get off the beaten track for a while for things to settle down, then you could plod off further at your own pace.

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so much of survival in an all out appocalyptic situation is luck.  I refer to my thread under the camping section where I nearly died this past summer from something as simple as an infected pimple.  I was 2-3 days from being dead if I hadn't made it to a hospital with modern medicine.

I will say that if I'm alone the wilderness is my choice.  I don't need much to survive and the east coast mountains aren't so severe that I would need more then I can carry.  A scout hole is cozy warm and hard to find.  Fishing, hunting small game (nothing like squirrel & opossum stew) are fine for me.

I have to consider my wife as well though and possibly friends who are total tech people with no basic survival knowledge (good shots at the range though).  In this situation the wilderness vs. suburbs vs city becomes a very hard choice.

I'll throw something else out to you all.  Where does your morality go?  Assuming none of us are thieves and murderers how far do you go in even a realistic situation?  See Katrina or even the Rhodney King Riots.  When do you say, I'm going to steal?  When do you gun down another human being who is also hungry and scared?  I live only a few blocks from a Wal-mart.  At what point does a quick jog over and stealing become O.K?

I'm not looking for the macho shoot now, shoot later then shoot some more junk.  This is a serious issue.  Anybody have any thoughts on how far they would be willing to change?

On the what would you do? question, IMHO for sane, "decent" people a big issue is the one you mentioned yourself, if you're protecting others you'll probably find yourself going further than you would if you were alone.

Here in Oz we have far less access to the plethora of weapons that you have in the States, and personally I think that's a good thing, as we're less likely to come up against large numbers of gun wielding morally handicapped types, such as you have described, and such as those who put up sites like the one Vnam put up a link for.

As for what I'd do, if at all possible I would avoid killing anyone, but I would disable ( IE injure if necessary ) someone who was attacking me or someone I was connected to with intent to inflict harm. IF the attack was not stoppable by any other means, I believe that I would go to that extent (kill), but I expect that it would haunt me for the rest of my days.

As far as helping yourself goes, IF things had fallen apart, I would NOT take from someone else, but collecting NECESSITIES from a deserted store would be acceptable for survival, if things recovered, the chain would collect from insurance etc, if not, no individuals were harmed by the need to live. (raiding empty stores for plasma screens and baubles is not the same as surviving, though, IMHO)

FWIW

Fox, you pose a great question.  If it truly is TEOTWAWKI, I don't think I would stick around long enough for my morals to decay to the point of desperation.  Once societal madness sets in, I would prefer to go out in defense of those who choose to remain as they try to scrape by in such a dismal world.  We all have to leave this orbiting ball of dirt sooner or later. I'd rather go out on top, so to speak, instead of waiting to merely fade away in a seething pool of depravity and total chaos.  I don't want my last breath to come as I fight over a piece of meat with another hapless soul.  You guys can head for the hills and I'll hold them off as long as I can. Wolverines!

I'm wondering what extent you go to and how fast.  Even with the disasters we've seen here in the US it doesn't take long, a few days, for people to be in desperate need.  Do we look at Katrina and say lets steal supplies day one?  Do we hold out but then when help doesn't arrive for a few weeks and we're in trouble do we go out to now empty looted stores?  Now we may be in the situation of needed to go to desperate needs.

If I have no water for a week (thinking of the people during Katrina) do I now kill for that bottle of water?  Do I hold out hope?  So far great responses to this portion of the question, thanks guys.

Just a side story.  I knew a guy (parent of one of my students) who during Katrina owned and piloted a helicopter.  He helped me out on our anniversery one time (awesome story of me picking up the wife and sweeping her away in a helicopter).  When everything went wrong in Katrina I had the idea of taking the helicopter down and flying water in and people out.  As soon as I hinted at it the individual made it clear it wasn't an option.  Not because it wasn't physically possible but because he made it not an option.  I was dismayed by that.

I think until it actually hits the fan, it's hard to really know what you would do.  Life in general is full of morally gray decisions.  Life without law and order will be even more so.  I guess there are defining moments when you find out what you're made of.

If you are stranded with three buddies and there was only one sip of water left in the canteen, would you take it or pass it?  I'd like to think most people would pass.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" Barong Machete, Special Forces Shovel

This 'quote' is attributed both to George Bernard Shaw and to Churchill--But the point is the same either way.

GBS: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?
Actress: My goodness, Well, I’d certainly think about it.
GBS: Would you sleep with me for a pound?
Actress: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!
GBS: Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.

My personal belief is that staying on good terms with my God provides better advantages than anything I might gain by immoral acts.  This does not mean I would have any qualms about stopping a looter or defending myself, my family or my neighbor, or a stranger.  In fact I would consider it my duty.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

That is one thing that always amazes me, looking at Katrina and the LA riots. It seemed that people were terrible confused, why would you, when in a survival situation, having little or no food or water raid a shop , and come out with a TV?

What are they going to do , sit around and pretend (No power remember) they are watching Masterchef?

I agree, that desperate times call for desperate measures and if people are starving and there is food in a locked store, for arguments sake, I don't see it as stealing if people have no real alternative. 

sometimes things just are not what they seem.

Vegemite


If you are stranded with three buddies and there was only one sip of water left in the canteen, would you take it or pass it?  I'd like to think most people would pass.

That's a good point.  An important concept to consider is this:  How important to you is your own life in comparison to those close to you?
 
There are a few that I would willingly give myself up for.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

The thing that always amazes me about mob mentality is when they do decide to riot, what do they do?  They go out and loot, ransack, destroy and burn THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD! Oh yeah.  That'll teach them to tick us off, won't it?

XL Espada


The thing that always amazes me about mob mentality is when they do decide to riot, what do they do?  They go out and loot, ransack, destroy and burn THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD! Oh yeah.  That'll teach them to tick us off, won't it?

That's the core of the mob mentality.  It doesn't matter WHAT they pillage and burn, but only that they do.  There's no reason or rationale to a riot.
 
Protestors are not much better, just usually less violent.  It doesn't matter what they protest, as long as they protest something.  In my experience, most don't even know WHY the idea they protest against is objectionable, beyond someone else telling them that it is, which is another common aspect to the mob mentality.
 
The downside of both is that it leads one to be placed on a "watch list".

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

It's amazing how often my students give this same attitude.  I know it's alternative education and many of the students have been in prison but the attitude of, "I'll do x and that will show you" then doing something that hurts yourself amazes me.  Looters, rioters and prisoners seem to have this in common.  I'm all for protestors as long as you are doing it intelligently and protesting something you know and know why.

I love the story from GBS or Churchhill, it demonstrates the point well.  You notice I asked the morality question but haven't answered it myself.  I honestly don't know what I would or wouldn't do.  I don't know how far I would go.  I would like to think if I was taking from a store I would be willing to pay when things get back to normal but much of my issue is how soon am I willing to do these things?  Still loving everyones feedback.

I'd give up my last drink of water.  If water is that scarce, that last little bit won't prolong my life much longer, anyway.  What would be worse...dying of thirst or watching your friend die of thirst while knowing you're going to be the next one to go?

dlyn454


I enjoyed that movie.  Haven't seen it in a while.

Point I wanted to make about the sniper is everybody imagines paramilitary actions with gunbattles or Mad Max gangs doing frontal assaults..  But in the old West the danger was not gunfights in the streets but a "claim jumper' in the bushes shooting you in the back as you went about your chores.  Yeah someone might be a Super Trooper with the latest AR.  But your adversary might be a guy who has fun shooting prairie dogs at 300 yds with his bolt action.  Think Quigley Down Under with a modern rifle.  I figure avoidance is the best defense.  It appears that in recent disasters generators have attracted looters.

I agree with this-

In a post-apocalyptic world it will be easy enough to die without looking for trouble.  Keeping off of would-be bandits radar is preferable then getting maimed or killed.

However I also think that in a few short months, those lucky/smart/prepared enough to have survived will rapidly start to reform some sort of society for mutual protection.  A lot of people will probably be killed by bandits, but the bandits will eventually run into someone bigger/meaner/luckier then they.

"There is nothing in the universe cold steel won`t cut."

    -Conan of Cimmeria in "Beyond the Black River" by R.E. Howard

I agree completely.  You know in the old west most wild towns were not settled down by some heroic sheriff.  They were settled down when the townspeople said "Enough" and broke out some rope. They started popping necks and the bad guys left or died. 
But then those were a tough bunch.  That Storekeeper was likely a Civil War Vet (Americas bloodiest war)  Would decent people in todays world stand up and put the stomp on a bunch of gangsters ?
Hmm--but maybe the sort who would survive in the first place would be exactly the sort who would not be timid.     

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

On the dangers in a gun owning society breakdown, don't forget that you're just as likely to be shot by some timid, frightened person that you may try and help, as I mentioned in another thread, emotions and weapons are a dangerous mix, and someone you try and help is just as likely to see you as another scary looter/brigand and shoot you before you have a chance to explain.

They'll probably feel bad when the moment passes and they realise that you were a "good guy", but that won't help you at that point.

(Part of the reason I'm glad it's hard to legally own guns here, plenty of guns on farms, but not many in the towns and cities where this crap normally would play out.)

NB: Dlyn, I'm glad most of the guys here are too young to know about Soylent Green.

neale


On the dangers in a gun owning society breakdown, don't forget that you're just as likely to be shot by some timid, frightened person that you may try and help, as I mentioned in another thread, emotions and weapons are a dangerous mix, and someone you try and help is just as likely to see you as another scary looter/brigand and shoot you before you have a chance to explain.

They'll probably feel bad when the moment passes and they realise that you were a "good guy", but that won't help you at that point.

(Part of the reason I'm glad it's hard to legally own guns here, plenty of guns on farms, but not many in the towns and cities where this crap normally would play out.)

NB: Dlyn, I'm glad most of the guys here are too young to know about Soylent Green.

Soylent Green is people! We've got to stop them somehow!

sometimes things just are not what they seem.

I'm betting that most, if not all, of you include a firearm of some kind in your BOB, but I also wonder how many of those BOB's include some kind of "suicide kit".
 
I mentioned being part of a group that would band together right away, and as a result, I don't have an individual survival bag made up, but I also know that if needed, I would have a way to do myself in should the worst happen, either by my own hand or someone I trust.

Life is too serious to take seriously.

Swords, knives, and guns don't kill people.  Gaping holes in vital organs and exsanguination do.

"Healthy" is simply the slowest possible rate at which a person will die without assistance.

not preparing to do myself in.  Both for religious and personal reasons.  Not saying it would never happen but if i have my BOB with me I have more then enough ways I could do myself or others in.  It's hard to eliminate all means of suicide from somebody.

It's funny that we all started out describing survival as things other then the apocalyptic end of the world scenario but it's what we are all thinking about now.  My thoughts still dwell on the couple of weeks or month after a dissaster.  Situations where the entire social structure hasn't collapsed but you are stranded or without modern resources for a short / medium time.

Fox, I guess situation A, getting lost in the woods/short term disaster, is more clear cut.  Situation B, the cataclysm, is filled with "what ifs" and more fodder for discussion.

         Simple things are best.

         Current CS gear:
         True Flight Thrower, 18" Barong Machete, Special Forces Shovel

I think that would be the toughest time.The re-adjustment period.
(There is a term --"Periodic Catastrophic Adjustment" --worth knowing about)
When things first go bad and people are dependent on a system that is no longer there.  The unprepared are in panic.  The criminal minded are running wild--stealing TVs and such.  (as mentioned, people destroying thier own community and all its resources)  But I think things would settle down pretty quickly to a new normal.  It might be a normal like a 3rd world country 100 years ago--but a normal.
One thing occurred to me after reading these.  During WW 2 we have great examples of just what we are talking about.  Devistated cities.  Bombs raining down.  But did people 'flee to the hills' to hide much ?  Yes there were refugees to other cities.  and the Brits sent their kids to the countryside.  But--and I may welll be wrong--my impression is most city dwellers stayed in the ruins rather than flee to the woods and build a lean-to.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

Didn't someone specifically ask what we'd do IF the big crash scenario occurred? ;^)

Some of us older types lived through the period in the 60's, 70's and early 80's when many people WERE convinced that the end of the world is nigh, they had the cold war, then there was the overwhelming fear that society would collapse when petrol ran out, then you guys had an apparently senile ex-actor in the chair who repeatedly made jokes on open mikes about bombing Russia (when they were run by hardliners who didn't know what a sense of humour was) etc, Post Apocalypse movies (the ones Dlyn, Digr and I have been referring to) were quite common, and many of us spent quite a bit of time thinking about what we'd do if it did happen, I studied about self sufficiency and planned to get myself a little hobby farm in the bush (more viable for me than other city slickers as I'm first generation OFF the farm and have spent enough time on the family farms to know what's required) and how I could make a living from there. Things have settled down from those days, but some elements are hotting up again, and we can remember what the plans and ideas were way back when.

And Dlyn, things are a little different from WW2 cities now, if you remember from your studies, many of the old cities had areas where people could maintain vegetable gardens, and some way to sustain themselves, aside from the apparently massive forest in the middle of New York, how many cities cater for that nowadays? The mentality to ship everything in from the cheapest supply points (usually overseas) and ever decreasing profitability margins has led to much of the local food production to disappear, so everything would have top be started from scratch, difficult under unstable conditions, especially with the entrenched mob mentaility where people would often grab what they want for instant gratification, rather than prepare for the longer term.

Sorry that went on so long, thought the background may be of interest.

Yes--several good points (skipping over a disagreement about a certain president) :)
That is something I have pondered.  There was more of a sense of community then that is lacking now, and a common code of behavior.  And even city slickers were often one generation from the farm.  I was made to plow and plant when I was a small child---yet I still have a black thumb.  Gardening is a skill and I wonder if those who have never planted a seed would learn it before they starved---even if they had the land to do it on.  And the sheer population size today would make it harder.

I remember a young college woman who asked her her professor the one thing she had always wondered.  "How they get the little brown wrapper on the potatos"

As a Cold War child I did take some pleasure in the failure of the Russian missle and Russian officials lamenting about the loss of tech skill they have suffered that they can no longer make them work properly.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."  Thomas Jefferson to George Washington. 1796

Gardening is a skill and I wonder if those who have never planted a seed would learn it before they starved---even if they had the land to do it on. And the sheer population size today would make it harder.

 
take into consideration the chance of wandering raiding parties, criminals, any sort of lowlife, and the chances just get slimmer and slimmer

I'm a youngster, and only worked on a horse farm as a child but I'm a first generation city person also.  I grew up in country and rural settings, I've seen a great deal of the farm life and planting.  Not enough to feel confident but with my camping and survival work I do feel I would be able to survive, even if not always comfortably.

I agree with you all the what ifs of long term survival is more fun to discuss.  Also if you can maintain and rebuild from total destruction lasting a week or couple weeks is no big deal.  I often discuss what we would do in case of zombies with my friends.  Not because we really believe they will rise (though I can hope) but if you can survive the zombie invasion everything else seems easy.  Mostly though it's just loads of fun

As for real survival I've started gardening again.  Only a little at a time.  This year we did an herb garden, next summer we're adding tomatos, peppers and carrots.  Little by little I'm trying to rediscover how to do it.